[pp.int.general] VIlfredo goes to Athens. /era Re: Liquid Democracy - a summary attempt

seykron seykron at partidopirata.com.ar
Mon Apr 28 19:53:05 CEST 2014

I think that at this point we mostly agree on some things despite
specific tools:

* Liquid feedback does not solve core problems of representative

* Direct democracy and consensus is a difficult practice and it also
  has its own issues.

* In any case, participation requires engagement from people. Liquid
  feedback platforms do not help on this, but a bad implemented
  consensus process neither.

I created a pad to write a collaborative outcome of this discussion:


I propose to build a strong critic (in form of questions and bullets)
from different perspectives for both liquid feedback and consensus
processes and then send it to our local parties. For me it is a very
valuable reflection that all parties must add into the agenda.

Feel free to modify, add more questions or rewrite what is needed.



On Mon, 28 Apr 2014 19:27:20 +0200
"Cal." <peppecal at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28 April 2014 18:58, carlo von lynX <lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org>
> wrote:
> > We tried a consensus-fostering software platform for a bit, it's
> > called "Vilfredo goes to Athens." It adapts a model from a liberal
> > Italian economist to direct democracy.
> It's not "a model" and it wasn't a very long experiment.
> Vilfredo works by iteratively selecting a "Pareto front" among the
> proposals, which is a set of non-dominated proposals. A "dominated"
> proposal is a proposal whose supporters are a strict subset of the
> dominating proposal's ones.
> This way, a Pareto front is, at all times, a set of proposals that
> represent the whole population.
> > Each time a participant does not like a
> > certain proposal the software asks him to rewrite the proposal in
> > such a way that he would like it.
> That only happens to unwilling to cooperate stubborn people.
> > That means a whole lot of work,
> So does democracy. Fighting is inherently simpler.
> > and when
> > all participants have finally settled on something they all find
> > acceptable it probably watered down to some populistic phrase or
> > motto.
> You just can't stop. You just *have* to propagate disinformation.
> Consensus methods are feared by strongly polarized majorities. We get
> it. ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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