[pp.int.general] Are pirates anty-monopolies in general (or only in the area of government granted intellectual monopolies)?

[rherzog at uni-bremen.de]

Dear Thomas,

Please read Marx before referring to him, please study e.g. Adam Smith  
for capitalist philosophy.

Regards

Rolf


Zitat von Thomas Blechschmidt <thomas.blechschmidt at piratenpartei-bayern.de>:

> Ahoi Zbigniew,
>
> Communism was never worked anywhere. The idea might be great, but it  
> neglects human needs, personality, human value,... shortly:  
> Everything essential for society.
>
> It is not a surprise, that you don't find reference to capital in  
> the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia is - at least among pirates in  
> Germany - not seen as scientific reliable source of knowledge,  
> because it is written by individuals and not proved by any Gremium.  
> So a German author will set his own definition of Capitalism and an  
> American one as well. And thus not necessarily are the same. At  
> least: Capitalism is defined by Karl Marx, not by Capitalist. Marx  
> defined Communism as his personal preferred political structure,  
> based basically on materialistic items, the ownership of production  
> untilities. Capitalism did not have such philosophers im between his  
> members. Capitalists didn't have the need to define their way of  
> life. But Marx needed something to set his ideas against. So  
> Capitalists didn't know, that they are capitalists until Marx  
> branded them.
>
> So far, concentration of capital is not the number one  
> characteristic of capitalism. It is the possession of the production  
> items oder untilities. Marx even did not think about concentration  
> of capital or power. In this sense his thoughts are anything or many  
> thing, but not political. Politics is about power and concentration  
> of power tools. Capital or simply money is just one of those items.
>
> The article matches the point: Free market and concentration of  
> capital is a contradiction. It ends up in a regulated market -  
> regulated by the ones, who are in possession of the biggest  
> concentration of capital - and not of the production items. The  
> point is, that certain people fool us pretending that we have free  
> markets, and they use the politicians to get influence on the  
> education and formation of kids and young people. The next  
> generations should not be shown, that free market only exists with  
> rules. It is the remarkable property of freedom / liberty: It just  
> can be realized installing tough, strong and consequent rules and a  
> system, which ist able to prosecute violations by an independent  
> justice.
>
> The idea of liberalism als the political philosophy of  
> liberty/freedom always was, to base justice on basic values, basic  
> rights, human rights and civil rights, not exactly on detailed law  
> sentences. Therefore the English have developed Magna Charta and  
> Bill of Rights and the US added their constitution.
>
> Did you know, by the way, that Benjamin Franklin travelled through  
> Europe to revise European Constitutions and he chose at least the  
> Constitution of the Holy German Empire as copy-base for the  
> US-Constitution? It sounds like a joke. But basically the US are a  
> modern copy of the second Empire.
>
> But that leads away from the topic. The article is really  
> interesting. It is time to get back to the basic value of democracy:  
> Liberty. That relation is what many of our pirate fellows here in  
> Germany did forget and they follow left wing ideas, repeating the  
> fights of ancient decades. Trying to win the communist and socialist  
> battles, battles which got already lost before they began.
>
> What I see: In your country the main pure politics issue at the  
> moment is to make clear, that in energy politics the idea to use  
> nuclear power and fracking gas to get out of dependency is an error.  
> But that is something we can discuss another day.
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net
>> [mailto:pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net] Im Auftrag
>> von Zbigniew Lukasiak
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. Juli 2014 20:36
>> An: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> Betreff: Re: [pp.int.general] Are pirates anty-monopolies in general (or
>> only in the area of government granted intellectual monopolies)?
>>
>> Hello there!
>>
>> First I'll answer your question from the end of your comment - I am from
>> Poland - and actually in Poland the 'bad' system in our common
>> consciousness is communism - not capitalism :) We still remember how it
>> was (not) working.
>>
>> My comment about capitalism was referring to the 'capital' part of
>> capitalism - when I read now the wikipedia article about capitalism
>> there is not much reference to capital - but it was a surprise for me.
>> I thought that the concentration of capital is the number one
>> characteristic of capitalism - otherwise it would be called 'free market
>> system'. As the article arguments there is a contradiction between
>> 'concentration' (of capital) and free market - that was what I was
>> referring to.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Zbigniew
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Thomas Blechschmidt
>> <thomas.blechschmidt at piratenpartei-bayern.de> wrote:
>>> Ahoi Zbigniew,
>>>
>>> On first hand your observation is right. But nearly at the end of the
>> article, after reading 80% of this document, you find the answer:
>>>
>>> "There is no market here whatsoever. Any real market is open. Prices
>> are transparent. You can enter it or exit a real market at will. You can
>> compare contracts. So the free market ideology basically leaves us free
>> of markets. The free market ideology is the fastest way to complete
>> concentration of power.
>>>
>>> So the free market ideology has killed markets?
>>>
>>> The free market ideology has killed markets."
>>>
>>> The point ist the general misunderstanding between continental-
>> europeans - supposedly influenced by Marx, Engels and their fellowers
>> theories - and anglo-saxonian point of view.
>>>
>>> We here in Europe are used and trained to think, capitalism is bad. It
>> is the heritage of socialism, the majority of us carry with it with us.
>> But, rationally seen, capitalism ist not bad or good per se. It neither
>> is an ideology, like  the majority of "left Parties followers" in Europe
>> think. It is just a way to manage life and daily business.
>>>
>>> For anglo-saxonian understanding, it is the perfect way to organize
>> economic life in any society.
>>>
>>> The main value, this is based on, is "Freedom", or "Liberty". The
>> political sphere and the economic sphere necessarily need to be strictly
>> separated to realize this. There should be no mix between political
>> structures an economic structures, which is not transparent, open,
>> evident and provable for an member of the society.
>>>
>>> In that "liberal" world, it is not possible, that persons with big
>> economic power get preferred treatment by any office, administration
>> oder governmental unit. So to say: In a liberal world. The President of
>> a nation or country, like Vladimir Putin, would not receive a big
>> companies leader like, Joe Käser, from SIEMENS, for political
>> conversation. And there would be no way to spent those "leaders" more
>> attention than to other people.
>>>
>>> The problem you face is your understanding of "free markets" vs. a
>> liberal understanding of "free markets". "Free market" in liberal
>> context, ist strictly ruled and regulated with the purpose to avoid any
>> concentration of power, who might destroy or disturb equalitiy of market
>> participants.
>>>
>>> "Free market" in Neo-Feudalism (compare with the analyses of Juergen
>> Habermas, that we are going into a new age for feudalism), even called-
>> "neo-conservatism" or even worse "neo-liberalism", means the strict
>> absence of any rules.
>>>
>>> The political gap in Americas society takes place between that two
>> ways to see economy. Not between "socialist" and "liberal" models, like
>> we are used to in Europe. Liberalism ist not the bad, and socialism for
>> sure not the good way to organize a societies economy. The key point of
>> democracy is the balance of power. Not the realization of specific a
>> system.
>>>
>>> Pirates in Germany have to face that discussion right now. It led the
>> party down to 1,4% in the EU-Elections. I'm  Bavarian, so far member of
>> Pirate Party Germany.
>>>
>>> But indeed, they obviously use it in that article in an ironic way and
>> didn't mark that with anything. Might be due to buzz-word searching in
>> order to spread up the range of the article in the internet.
>>>
>>> I'm still looking for international pirates to join our Tem Energy
>> policy.
>>>
>>> Where you from? May be we can meet one day.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> ☠Thomas Blechschmidt ☠
>>>
>>> Postfach 02 55
>>> 86802 Buchloe
>>> Bavaria
>>>
>>> Piratenpartei Deutschland
>>> Bezirksverband Schwaben
>>> Vorsitzender des Vorstands
>>>
>>> www.thomasblechschmidt.de
>>> www.lacaleta.de
>>>
>>> 0049 8241 997510
>>> 0049 172 8100643
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Food for thought:
>>>> www.salon.com/2014/06/29/free_markets_killed_capitalism_ayn_rand_ronal
>>>> d_ reagan_wal_mart_amazon_and_the_1_percents_sick_triumph_over_us_all/
>>>>
>>>> I think the title should actually be 'How capitalism killed free
>> market"
>>>> not the other way around - but it is very interesting.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
>>>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ____________________________________________________
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