[pp.int.general] consensus experiment
Anouk
jakobsheep at gmail.com
Thu May 15 17:52:03 CEST 2014
Keep things simple,
First 'need' :
- a list of contacts that can reply to enquiries and can direct questions
to the proper 'bureau's/work-groups/teams/or short: the responsible ones'
acting as the human interface in organisational structures (pirate parties).
This would be obvious the international coordination.
- This creates the task of (minimal) one person keeping the obtained list
up to date and do a 'ping' from time to time to see if the human interface
still responds.
- The Pirate Times could ideally fulfil this function and at the same time
ask if there is any news ;)
- Another task of-course would be to pro-actively look for these contacts
when absent and if necessary insisting on reminding this pirate group.
- The PPI could fulfil this function and has a team (just starting).
Second need ;
- have a list of contacts that have 'acting competence'. Meaning an
international coordinator (team) with 'power' to directly interact (sort of
a voting competence / vote of confidence).
- This creates the task of keeping this list up to date and checking if the
mandate is still valid.
- A dedicated work-group preferably separate from the PPI would be
recommended. The PP-EU would be a good (although still early to be sure)
example of the form required.
Second bis need :
- Determine which platform(s) can provide to be the communication-tool for
all (other) pirates.
- The PPI could fulfil this function and has a team (just starting).
- Etcetera.
My 2cents
Have a nice weekend ;)
On 15 May 2014 17:01, Betiel <betielix at gmail.com> wrote:
> like the idea. Still is needed those Ships (That`s how we call groups of
> interest in the Argentine pirate party) to be coordinated in some way.
> Meaning: the existence of each group must be known to all parties and if
> they are created as list must be at least some with administrative rights.
>
>
> 2014-05-15 11:48 GMT-03:00 Andreas Czák <Sonstwer at piratenpartei.at>:
>
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>>
>> I've posted a counter proposal in your pad
>>
>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/CommunicationChannels
>>
>>
>>
>> #Counter Proposal:
>>
>> Identify the interests of local pirate organisations (and people)
>> create channels based on the same interests
>> -> leads to international working groups on specific tasks
>> -> reduces the information overflow on coordinators
>> -> makes it easier to work on specific tasks and topics rather than
>> having to read ALL the international communication
>>
>> Reason for me is: There're sooo many mails and i'm not able to read them
>> all
>> in order to get things done we must split communication based on topics,
>> doing so will enable more pirates to work together on the things they're
>> interested in
>>
>> Greets
>> Andreas "Sonstwer" Czák
>> #PPAT - Member of the intl. Delegates - Pirate Party Austria
>> @Sonstwer
>>
>>
>> Am 15.05.2014 14:33, schrieb seykron:
>>
>> > Great idea!
>> >
>> > I did create a PAD to work on this proposal (aka collect communication
>> > channels):
>> >
>> > http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/CommunicationChannels
>> >
>> > Josef, could you add all communication channels you know? And could you
>> > send the pad to other people that may know about more communication
>> > channels?
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Matías
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 15 May 2014 11:20:09 +0200
>> > Josef Ohlsson Collentine <international at piratpartiet.se><international at piratpartiet.se>wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Zbigniew,
>> >>
>> >> agree but first step is always doing inventory of current channels.
>> >>
>> >> There's already a plethora of mailing-lists, facebook groups, ppi work
>> >> groups etc
>> >>
>> >> Several of which have tried doing part of what you want. Would be more
>> >> useful if someone had the possibility of listing all of them and we
>> >> could start analyzing where they went wrong before we start "yet
>> >> another" mail list.
>> >>
>> >> Kindly,
>> >> Josef
>> >>
>> >> *International Contact for PPSE*
>> >> Contact me for any questions/concerns or if you need to get hold of
>> >> someone in Piratpartiet or internationally.
>> >>
>> >> *Other contact:*
>> >> mail: international at piratpartiet.se
>> >> Twitter: @collentine
>> >> Skype: josef.ohlsson.collentine (only important conversations)
>> >> Cel: +46 73 824 9849 (text me, if urgent)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:22 PM, <
>> >> pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Send pp.international.general mailing list submissions to
>> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>>
>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >>>
>> >>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >>> pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>>
>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >>> pp.international.general-owner at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>>
>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >>> than "Re: Contents of pp.international.general digest..."
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Today's Topics:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. Re: Worrying tendency regarding our message board policies
>> >>> (Antonio Garcia)
>> >>> 2. A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
>> >>> Communication Problem. (Zbigniew ?ukasiak)
>> >>> 3. Re: A consensus experiment as a partial answer to the Pirate
>> >>> Communication Problem. (Antonio Garcia)
>> >>> 4. Re: [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still missing 8/11 board
>> >>> reports from the last PPI board + alternate members (Koen De
>> >>> Voegt)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> Message: 1
>> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:15:32 +0000
>> >>> From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com><ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net><pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>,
>> "
>> >>> hyazinthe at emailn.de"
>> >>> <hyazinthe at emailn.de> <hyazinthe at emailn.de>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our
>> >>> message board policies
>> >>> Message-ID: <DUB119-W51F9EC7ACB25BC00CD92F8DC370 at phx.gbl><DUB119-W51F9EC7ACB25BC00CD92F8DC370 at phx.gbl>
>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>>
>> >>> Too late for that, my dear...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 03:01:10 +0200
>> >>> From: evilteddyxl at gmail.com
>> >>> To: hyazinthe at emailn.de;
>> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net Subject: Re:
>> >>> [pp.int.general] Worrying tendency regarding our message board
>> >>> policies
>> >>>
>> >>> Fully agreed and I notice this development too. In The Netherlands
>> >>> there are strong advocates of similar measures, but luckily these
>> >>> measures have not been put into effect yet *officially* (and as
>> >>> such, are not enforced or widely employed at all).
>> >>>
>> >>> For me, a pirate party is not about gaining seats or getting into
>> >>> city councils. It is about achieving our ideals. I don't care if
>> >>> that's through getting into legislature bodies through elections,
>> >>> or spreading awareness amongst the people, or through setting up
>> >>> protests. I don't care at all. The core of it always is that we
>> >>> want to have certain ideals be embedded into law and into
>> >>> governmental and economic conduct. There are various ways to do
>> >>> this, none being strongly better than the other. Each have their
>> >>> cons and pros.
>> >>>
>> >>> As one of our core ideals is openness, transparancy and such, we
>> >>> should also employ this into the Pirate Party itself. Having no
>> >>> proper public lists is directly in violation of this core
>> >>> principle. If we abandon this core principle, it is a slippery
>> >>> slope which will eventually make us no different than the generic
>> >>> yet another political party.
>> >>>
>> >>> There will always be trollls. Just learn to live with the flaming
>> >>> wars or shitstorms they cause periodically. And when worried about
>> >>> leaking abuses of power or such to public lists (I have done so
>> >>> several times, in one case even receiving threats of various
>> >>> magnitudes including a very nice piece of paper filled with threats
>> >>> in legal jargon from the board which i immediatelly consigned to no
>> >>> more value as toilet paper.), the first thing you should consider
>> >>> then that when there are no abuses taking place, they can't be
>> >>> leaked to the public lists (or even for that matter, the press,
>> >>> which is generally even more undesirable).
>> >>>
>> >>> Keep in mind that if you don't adhere to core principles, you are
>> >>> bound to fail as a pirate party, since people will eventually see
>> >>> that you are no different than the others. Lets try to prevent that
>> >>> from happening.
>> >>>
>> >>> -- RobertoElected member of the Dutch Pirate Party member council.
>> >>>
>> >>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> Message: 2
>> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
>> >>> From: Zbigniew ?ukasiak <zzbbyy at gmail.com> <zzbbyy at gmail.com>
>> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net><pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> >>> Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial answer
>> >>> to the Pirate Communication Problem.
>> >>> Message-ID:
>> >>> <
>> >>> CAGL_UUuzCKi0nFu224bcrbRBnFcZPbZnNO2U3GZdcn1P+XYWmA at mail.gmail.com>
>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >>>
>> >>> Copied from the workpad at:
>> >>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> # Problem
>> >>> (http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
>> >>>
>> >>> There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
>> >>> parties:
>> >>>
>> >>> * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to talk
>> >>> about everything
>> >>>
>> >>> * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
>> >>> makes the discussion chaotic
>> >>>
>> >>> * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
>> >>> desert
>> >>>
>> >>> * the local forums are often locked down now
>> >>>
>> >>> ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
>> >>>
>> >>> A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would gather
>> >>> opinions
>> >>> from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
>> >>> them.
>> >>>
>> >>> It will be immediately useful for:
>> >>>
>> >>> * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also actions
>> >>> like welcoming Snowden etc.)
>> >>>
>> >>> * working on common program core (the European common core program
>> >>> is very useful for small parties and it should be copied worldwide)
>> >>>
>> >>> * making common declarations
>> >>>
>> >>> * maybe working on PPI statutes
>> >>>
>> >>> After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
>> >>> like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
>> >>>
>> >>> ### Known issues
>> >>>
>> >>> To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
>> >>>
>> >>> * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
>> >>> classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
>> >>> http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
>> >>> and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules for
>> >>> governance of the commons by Ostrom
>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
>> >>> Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
>> >>>
>> >>> * and it needs to include at least participants from all
>> >>> (legitimate) pirate parties
>> >>>
>> >>> ### Plan
>> >>>
>> >>> All more concrete rules would be established by the group
>> >>> itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
>> >>> problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
>> >>> start using emails and pads - and then choose our own communication
>> >>> infrastructure.
>> >>>
>> >>> All this will require some work from all participants - we need
>> >>> volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
>> >>> communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
>> >>> issues.
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone interested?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
>> >>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>> >>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> Message: 3
>> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 11:14:34 +0000
>> >>> From: Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com><ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> >>> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net><pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
>> >>> answer to the Pirate Communication Problem.
>> >>> Message-ID: <DUB119-W2535E309F9739351178594DC370 at phx.gbl><DUB119-W2535E309F9739351178594DC370 at phx.gbl>
>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >>>
>> >>> After
>> >>>
>> http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/finally
>> >>> finds a proper and decent solution.
>> >>>
>> >>> Before, anything anybody tries will be utterly pointless.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because WE all have been playing with ALL our CORE VALUES
>> >>> recklessly... there.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Antonio.
>> >>>
>> >>>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 13:07:46 +0200
>> >>>> From: zzbbyy at gmail.com
>> >>>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>>> Subject: [pp.int.general] A consensus experiment as a partial
>> >>>> answer to
>> >>> the Pirate Communication Problem.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Copied from the workpad at:
>> >>>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/ConsensusExperiment
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> # Problem (
>> >>> http://pad.polskapartiapiratow.pl/p/PirateCommunicationProblem)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There is a severe deficiency of communication between the pirate
>> >>>> parties:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * at the General Assemblies of PPI we don't have enough time to
>> >>>> talk about everything
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * the general mailing list does not work - because lack of rules
>> >>>> makes
>> >>> the
>> >>>> discussion chaotic
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * the leaders mailing list and Liquid Feedback setup by Nuno look
>> >>>> desert
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * the local forums are often locked down now
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ## Proposal 1: consensus deliberative group experiment (zby)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A consensus based deliberative group (committee?) that would
>> >>>> gather
>> >>> opinions
>> >>>> from all pirate parties and work on what is the common core among
>> >>>> them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It will be immediately useful for:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * organizing coordinated actions (mostly protests, but also
>> >>>> actions like welcoming Snowden etc.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * working on common program core (the European common core
>> >>>> program is very useful for small parties and it should be copied
>> >>>> worldwide)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * making common declarations
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * maybe working on PPI statutes
>> >>>>
>> >>>> After we get it running we can also work on more difficult stuff
>> >>>> like establishing what it really means to be a pirate party.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ### Known issues
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To get there we need to meet two conflicting requirements.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * The group cannot be too big - so that we can work with the
>> >>>> classical consensus protocol (based on ideas like:
>> >>>> http://www.starhawk.org/activism/trainer-resources/consensus.html),
>> >>>> and it needs to have a well defined boundary (rule #1 in 8 rules
>> >>>> for governance of the commons by Ostrom
>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom ). I think the Dunbar
>> >>>> Number that is 120 would make a hard limit.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> * and it needs to include at least participants from all
>> >>>> (legitimate) pirate parties
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ### Plan
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All more concrete rules would be established by the group
>> >>>> itself. I believe that if we make good rules we can avoid the
>> >>>> problems that afflict the other communication channels. We can
>> >>>> start using emails and pads - and then choose our own
>> >>>> communication infrastructure.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> All this will require some work from all participants - we need
>> >>>> volunteers that can regularly dedicate some of their time to
>> >>>> communicate with the group and with local parties and work on the
>> >>>> issues.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Anyone interested?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Zbigniew Lukasiak
>> >>>> http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>> >>>> http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>> >>>> ____________________________________________________
>> >>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> >>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>>
>> >>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> Message: 4
>> >>> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:23:02 +0200
>> >>> From: Koen De Voegt <koen.devoegt at antwerpsepiraten.be><koen.devoegt at antwerpsepiraten.be>
>> >>> To: Paul Bossu <paul at pirateparty.be> <paul at pirateparty.be>, Josef
>> Ohlsson Collentine
>> >>> <international at piratpartiet.se><international at piratpartiet.se>
>> >>> Cc: "pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net"<pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net>
>> >>> <pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net><pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net>
>> ,
>> >>> Pirate Parties
>> >>> International -- General Talk
>> >>> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net><pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] [pp-leaders.discussion] Fwd: Still
>> >>> missing 8/11 board reports from the last PPI board +
>> >>> alternate members
>> >>> Message-ID: <53739866.6010109 at antwerpsepiraten.be><53739866.6010109 at antwerpsepiraten.be>
>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you for your report Paul. Believe me we are trying to fix PPI.
>> >>> This is not an easy task and will take some time. More then I would
>> >>> like. I would like to note to everyone that doesn't like the way
>> >>> PPI is running should take up responsibility in trying to fix the
>> >>> matters instead of just giving criticism.
>> >>>
>> >>> Everyone feel free to propose any solution you are willing to
>> >>> implement to help PPI get back on track!
>> >>>
>> >>> Koen
>> >>>
>> >>> op 12-05-14 14:43, Paul Bossu schreef:
>> >>>> here is my opinion : http://piratepad.be/p/ppiboard
>> >>>>
>> >>>> *_PPI Alternate Board Member (2nd) - Report_*
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As asked by Joseph, here is my rapport of 2nd alternate board
>> >>>> member
>> >>>>
>> >>>> When i was candidate in april 2013 it was because form many
>> >>>> pirates, PPI is nothing and do nothing.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So i was alected 2nd alternate BM, in cas of problem with one of
>> >>>> the elected board member.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've do some mumble meeting at the beginning but as expected, it
>> >>>> was totally not interesting and most of the time speaking
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was not eh first one on the alternate list so i was also
>> >>>> discuissing with Jelena (1st alternate)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was clearly not more candidate for any position at PPi this year
>> >>>> because i found this organisation totally unrelevant and working
>> >>>> as a little circle of people who just wantr to have the tittle of
>> >>>> "chair person of world pirates" or just want to say they are "PPI
>> >>>> Board Member
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So after two or three mont of this non productive meetings, i was
>> >>>> just following the mailing (board at ppi) and mailing list
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You know, PPI is Gregory Engel's club for him and his friends ...
>> >>>> and th'at's all
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If after 4 years it's always the same people representing
>> >>>> pirates of the world ... (Gregory Engels and his close
>> >>>> friends.)... i suppose everyopne on earth can understand where
>> >>>> the problem is
>> >>>>
>> >>>> *Pirately yours and ... "PPI, never again '"*
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Paul
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> *Paul Bossu*
>> >>>> **
>> >>>> Board Member @PiratesBelgium <http://lepartipirate.be/about><http://lepartipirate.be/about>|
>> >>>> Board Member @EuropeanPirates <http://www.europeanpirates.eu/><http://www.europeanpirates.eu/>
>> >>>> Linked In Profile <http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu><http://be.linkedin.com/in/paulbossu>|
>> @Popol349
>> >>>> <https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E><https://twitter.com/Popol349%E2%80%8E>|
>> www.god2014.be
>> >>>> <http://god2014.be/> <http://god2014.be/> | +32 494 28 35 28
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> pp-leaders.discussion mailing list
>> >>>> pp-leaders.discussion at lists.pp-international.net
>> >>>> http://lists.pp-international.net/listinfo/pp-leaders.discussion
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> pp.international.general mailing list
>> >>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> >>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> End of pp.international.general Digest, Vol 87, Issue 11
>> >>> ********************************************************
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
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>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
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