[pp.int.general] Pirate Party MEP Fails to Deliver True Copyright Reform | TorrentFreak

Ray Jenson ray.jenson at gmail.com
Mon Feb 9 17:45:38 CET 2015

Carlo, you're off base.

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 9:26 AM, carlo von lynX <lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org>

> On Mon, Feb 09, 2015 at 07:17:32AM -0700, Ray Jenson wrote:
> > The Industrial way is one of taking from others. It's the medieval form
> of
> > piracy, which results in slavery, death, and robbery. This isn't what
> we're
> > about.
> This is completely off-topic.
I disagree. I think it's perfectly on-topic, since the issue itself is
old-style thinking versus new-style thinking.

> > The Information Age is one of giving to others. It's the modern form of
> > piracy, which results in openness, livelihood and generosity. This is
> > precisely what we're about, and always have been.
> This is ideology. It has been tried 40 years ago already and failed
> back then as it will fail over and over in the future. This is far
> distant from addressing the actual problem and trying to apply
> ideology with brute force will make things worse.
How was it tried 40 years ago?  You seem to know something I don't... yet
you aren't really telling me anything, you're just bitching about my post.

> > We need to learn to give and appear vulnerable to attack...
> This is what the Piratenpartei tried to do. You see the results.
> What do you want us to do? Chill out in the mud for some years
> longer in a Woodstock style? Wait until we are so few left that
> nobody is disturbed by repeating the same mistakes over and over?
Look at your choice of words.

They tried. I have done it. I have had success in several places. It takes
understanding the application, not merely trying to do something blindly.
Your post implies that there was incompetence... where exactly was this

I'm not talking about some hippie bullshit. I'm talking about something
that actually works, that has a practical and real application with good

> > Criticizing anyone at this point in time
> > (including the MAFIAA) will only serve to erode whatever power we have.
> We
> > have to spare our criticisms for when they will have an impact.
> We need to foster debate within our movement, but without eroding
> the little respect the outside world has left for us. That you do by
> providing appropriate tools, which certainly is not promoting one's
> point of view over public media. So yes and no to that.

I'm all for debate.

If you don't have public media, then how do you get the word to those who
don't know that there's another source?

There is a time and a place for impact. And that time and place must be
chosen with care.

The problem you're having is that you're trying to be strong from a
position of weakness. You can't do that and succeed. It never works. What
I'm talking about is building the strength up in a more subtle way, using
things that I've actually seen produce good results.

> > And then, when we make a criticism, it will be shocking. That kind of a
> > shock will create more publicity than a thousand criticisms that have
> poor
> > timing. We need to trust our politicians and create the impression that
> > ours are the only ones who are worthy of trust. And when they're forced
> to
> > make poor choices and bad moves, we should be understanding and critical
> of
> > the lacking support for this right thing that they wanted to do, rather
> > than critical of the wrong thing they did.
> Yes, but currently there is close to zero coherence in the
> movement. Everyone just does whatever it feels like, whenever
> it feels like doing.

Kind of like your response to my post. Think about it.

> > Building up through compassion and generosity will have a greater
> impact, I
> > think. Destroying is destroying, and anyone can do that.
> And it's in the nature of a disorganized organization that
> there will always be one or another that perceives a strategic
> advantage in destroying what others have been making. It's a
> gamble, and sometimes the dominant extroverts do win - but I
> think they shouldn't, even if by chance they are right. Just
> because you may be right doesn't give you the right to impose
> yourself on the rest of movement. By talking to the Pirates
> via the media you are trying to make yourself be heard louder
> and will make us look like a bunch of people that can't make
> their minds up.
While I don't discount the facts of what you say, the problem is that your
perception is skewed unnecessarily toward the same kind of thinking that
produced the situation in the first place.

I'm not imposing myself. I'm not imposing anything. I'm pointing out what I
see as ineffective and suggesting something that's more effective. If
you're not going to permit me to propose ideas, then why is it that we have
a mailing list? If I can't express my opinion, then of what utility is the
Pirate Party to you?

We shouldn't be talking only to the Pirates. We should be talking to the
world as well. But we need an upbeat and positive image to build from. I'm
talking about an image, not a reality. That's what politics is about.

If you take so much stock in the opinion I have expressed that you feel
hatred, then perhaps you lack the ability to understand any point of view
but your own. But you're right: perhaps once your mind is made up, I should
stop trying to add any other counterpoint or opinion.
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