[pp.int.general] pp.international.general Digest, Vol 18, Issue 12
Core TX
coretx at gmail.com
Sun Aug 24 05:18:39 CEST 2008
Please just let's stop bitching. And be constructive please !
And if you don't wish to do so, please send those non-constructive mails
towards the private adresses.
I would be delighted !
Tnx!
Signed,
A adult.
2008/8/23 <pp.international.general-request at lists.pirateweb.net>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate Manifesto?
> (Carlos Ayala)
> 2. Re: So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate Manifesto?
> (Carlos Ayala)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:36:36 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Carlos Ayala <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
> Subject: [pp.int.general] So Piratpartiet does not care about Pirate
> Manifesto?
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net,
> internacional at partidopirata.es
> Message-ID: <942978.10694.qm at web28606.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi:
>
> Not a nice thing to wake up in the morning, thinking we all were in the
> verge of starting the final effort to get ready the Pirate Manifesto's First
> Draft, only to discover this from ... Rick!
>
> ----- Mensaje original ----
> De: Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet) <rick at piratpartiet.se>
> Enviado: s?bado, 23 de agosto, 2008 10:54:48
> > So what is the purpose of the ongoing work, particularly as I see a lack
> of interest and buy-in
> > (not the least including a lack of interest from my own organization,
> pp.se, the reasons
> > for which I just explained)?
>
> We in PIRATA always knew that you, Piratpartiet, were saboutaging Pirate
> Manifesto since February 2008 -in spite of yourselves having agreed in
> Berlin the procedure to be followed in order to get the Manifesto done (vain
> words were those, then)-. Thank you for confirm our worst fears ...
>
> But let we make an analysis of your mail:
>
> > Moreover, while I'm posting to the list, I must ask what the purpose of
> the manifesto currently
> > driven by Carlos is.
>
> The purposes of this text are enlisted in the wiki page, according to what
> was agreed in Berlin. You should have better memory, not so many things were
> agreed in Berlin. Purposes:
>
> - Reflecting what do we want, which are our goals -let me emphasize the
> plural part; it's about us as a whole, what we are when we work in common,
> which are our joint goals; not just Rick's or Piratpartiet's-
> - stable; longlasting; as valid now as in the future; whatever the version
> that applies in each time, it will be a version to be observed.
> - it has to be a text agreeable to be read -that's what we have to do until
> 31st of august, if you don't mind ... it was supposed that Bjorn Odlund, Mab
> or whoever else from Piratpartiet was going to participate-
> - It's meant to be the embryo for an unified international movement, so
> it has to get enough abstraction to allow every single pirate party to
> look at Pirate Manifesto and say proudly this is my manifesto -this is a
> crucial thing I though everyone of us cared about; it seems that
> Piratpartiet doesn't care about it-
>
> > I know that there was originally a manifesto intended as a common
> platform for the European
> > Parliament election; its purpose was first and foremost to gain press
> around running for
> > parliament as a common movement.
>
> Wrong; it wasn't its main purpose. Of course making it public and
> attracting media focus is essential, but less essential than what it
> contains and how many parties participate in its writing.
>
> > Faced with a lack of progress on this list
>
> Of course there was a lack of progress, because lack of participation. And
> lack of Piratpartiet participation is due to you:
>
> [mar feb 12 2008] [02:45:57] <Teirdes> I'd love to offer my services as
> a representative of the Swedish Pirate Party.
> [mar feb 12 2008] [02:46:25] <Teirdes> But since I have no information
> whatsoever about the meeting (the Swedish representatives in Berlin haven't
> actually said anything about it) I'm not sure I'm capable of doing so.
>
> Have you ever talked about the Pirate Manifesto works internally in
> Piratpartiet, Rick, Christian -Christian Engstrom, who was sit just in front
> of me in Berlin within the task group working on the procedures for the
> Pirate Manifesto-? According to Teirdes, no; however you were main PPSE
> representatives in Berlin in January 2008's 2nd International Conference.
> Why didn't you report?
>
> > we created such a document at the Uppsala conference, a conference which
> Spain declined
> > sending delegates to. The Uppsala Declaration fulfilled all the stated
> goals, including getting
> > the desired press.
>
> Uppsala Declaration has fulfilled no single goal:
>
> - how many pirate parties have already signed it? Only members from 6
> pirate parties -apart from PPSE, were PPOE, PPDE, PPNL, PPFI and PPDK-, has
> any of those parties already signed the Uppsala Declaration?Has any of non
> attendant parties signed it?
> - "platforms are for elections, are specific action plans; a manifesto is
> more about ideas", was what we ... agreed? in Berlin; however, Marten
> Fjallstrom stated that Uppsala Declaration was a platform for 2009 EU
> Election, and even the Declaration talks about joining traditional
> parliamentary groups and how to vote on non-core issues; Uppsala Declaration
> has nothing to do with a Manifesto, and nothing to do with what was agreed
> in Berlin
>
> > So what is the purpose of the ongoing work, particularly as I see a lack
> of interest and buy-in
> > (not the least including a lack of interest from my own organization,
> pp.se, the reasons for
> > which I just explained)?
>
> The main lack of interest comes from Piratpartiet:
>
> - 10 parties already shared their stances to make everyone able to find out
> what do we have in common; we still miss French Parti Pirate, however
> - during the Pirate Manifesto's FIrst Draft sessions, representatives from
> all 10 pirate parties have participated in at least one session -have to say
> that Piratpartiet representatives didn't attend until last session-, being
> usual attendance 6-7 representatives at the same session, until we took the
> bad idea of moving sessions to weekends -which combined with the summer time
> produced the lack of attendance in the last session-
> - systematically, Piratpartiet has refused to send representatives to none
> of the Pirate Manifesto's sessions, until last one; actually I even wonder
> how is that you finally send your briefing
>
> That's the truth about Piratpartiet and the Pirate Manifesto:
>
> - RIck tried out to bring his own Manifesto and failed; it was developed
> counting with no one but Piratpartiet, and that was the main reason for its
> failure
> - then, in Berlin we agreed on make a joint effort to develop a suitable
> text for all parties
> - then, as Teirdes words reveal, there was no interest from Piratpartiet
> about having a joint Manifesto done -she even offered (apparently on her
> own, not as an idea from her party) to develop the Manifesto between PIRATA
> and Piratpartiet; that would have been a big mistake, as would have been
> almost the same that happened with RIck's text
> - then, without previous notice, the Uppsala Declaration thing was moved
> and written; from Marten Fjallstrom we know that Piratpartiet agreed with
> media to release the Declaration before the attending pirates were even
> aware of a Declaration going to be written; up to now, is there any pirate
> party having signed it?
> - then we all rescue the Pirate Manifesto -the original idea from Berlin,
> with Berlin rules-, not without troubles, but with the shared views from 10
> pirate parties and observing the deadlines
> - and finally, here comes Rick to state without any kind of shame that
> Piratpartiet has no interest in a Pirate Manifesto -he states that's enough
> with Uppsala Declaration, signed by no single pirate party, being a
> political platform rather than a manifesto-
>
> To be sincere, Rick: you have never seemed to be willing to develop a PPI
> spirit of continuous team working; instead, you've launched your own
> manifesto, your home-made Declaration, and everything like if PPI was the
> Piratpartiet international branch. It isn't. Of course Piratpartiet is the
> first and biggest pirate party; however, if you truly want a international,
> strong movement to exist simply treat other pirate parties as peers.
>
> We in PIRATA wouldn't have had any problem with Piratpartiet -as the
> biggest pirate party- leading the Pirate Manifesto efforts; however, PIRATA
> actually finds regrettable -and not only PIRATA but I think all pirate
> parties should- that blocking, saboutaging attitude from Piratpartiet in
> order to avoid a text agreed by all pirate parties and representing what we
> are and what we want -and now that we're having the text (not without
> troubles, of course) done, you try to defamate it-. Let's start team
> working, Rick, and let's stop launching torpedoes. Regards,
>
>
>
> Carlos Ayala
> (
> Aiarakoa )
>
> Partido Pirata National
> Board's Chairman
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!
> Reg?strate ya - http://correo.yahoo.es
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>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 11:13:06 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Carlos Ayala <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] So Piratpartiet does not care about
> Pirate Manifesto?
> To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>,
> internacional at partidopirata.es
> Message-ID: <881409.9355.qm at web28604.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I forgot to comment something:
>
> ----- Mensaje original ----
> De: Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet) <rick at piratpartiet.se>
> Enviado: s?bado, 23 de agosto, 2008 10:54:48
> > we created such a document at the Uppsala conference, a conference which
> Spain declined
> > sending delegates to. The Uppsala Declaration fulfilled all the stated
> goals, including getting
> > the desired press.
>
> That's an ignominious manipulation of facts. Are you purportedly alleging
> that PIRATA wasn't willing to attend Uppsala? Because it would be one of
> biggest lies ever said.
>
> - we are not quite rich in PIRATA
> - however we were trying to find the way to send at least one
> representative to Uppsala
> - finally, our National Assembly moved from the weekend previous to
> Uppsala, to the very Uppsala's weekend, so because of overlapping dates we
> were unable to send representatives; you're up to check it yourself at your
> own wiki
>
> So what do you pretend, Rick? Defamate the Manifesto? Defamate PIRATA? Stop
> it now, and focus on team working and on developing some inner mechanisms
> within PPI to make us EU-wide and worldwide operative.
>
> Why did nobody from Piratpartiet state nothing about the initiative against
> Torpedo Amendments -mail about it having been sent as soon as 13th of
> August, i.e., 10 days ago-? As I said in my former mail, in PIRATA we have
> no problem with Piratpartiet -as the biggest pirate party- leading PPI
> efforts; however, leadership also means responsibility, and by no means are
> you being responsible.
>
> Ricardo-Cristof Remmert and AK Vorrat have created an joint initiative
> against Data Retention; what, apart from a tiny contribution from Amelia
> Andersdotter, did Piratpartiet in the Levies Consultation? what about
> torpedo amendments? And so on: of course you are pretty active in the
> Swedish scope, but within PPI, what have you done to dare to put the blame
> on PIRATA with an statement like "we created such a document at the Uppsala
> conference, a conference which Spain declined sending delegates to"? Facts
> show that it's not PIRATA the party which shows disengagement to the PPI
> project ...
>
> So, RIck, stop now torpedoing the Pirate Manifesto -defamating PIRATA in
> the process- and start contributing to it. Regards,
>
>
>
> Carlos Ayala
> (
> Aiarakoa )
>
> Partido Pirata National
> Board's Chairman
>
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!
> Reg?strate ya - http://correo.yahoo.es
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