[pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

Mon Jan 5 20:45:56 CET 2009

I am very sorry. Yes, I can perfectly understand that you won't read all this anymore, and get irritated.
Still, there is a substantive aspect to this conversation, which is eventually important for our movement, with aspects such as:
- What are the priorities? Short term small reforms, or long term structural reforms, or both? If we do both, the one may hurt the other.
- How useful and how dangerous is the human rights argument?
- How do we get political attention for the privacy issue, in countries where this is not widely acknowledged? Finding solutions is difficult, but selling a problem first is even more difficult.
- How do we address the fact that a lot of legislation in "our" field is cast in the concrete of international treaties? It is a tough dilemma: accepting it may be seen as surrender, but proposing change will be considered extremely difficult, even by non-biased, non-political commentators.

I urge you all - if you comment - to comment on the substance of my questions, and not blame me for my wordings, simplifications or lack of supporting evidence. If only because such complaints have made 10 times already in the past week. If you feel offended, quit the list.     

Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316 7221
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Florian Lauté 
  To: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk 
  Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 4:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] where is the manifesto?

  I think this discussion is not a constructive one for PP (or PPI like you want).

  Please use private mail to do that, not on the mailing list. Some of us don't read anymore the mails sent throw the ML because of that kind of discussion.

  Sorry for my english which is not perfect, this is one of the reason why it is difficult to read "all" the mails ......

  Keep on mid that a clear debate, without animosity will be more important for each one of us than that.

  Florian Lauté from "Parti Pirate Français" (PPFR)

  2009/1/5 Carlos Ayala Vargas <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>

    Reinier Bakels wrote:

      1. I don't think a private conversation was appropriate. I always talked about the substance - even if you sometimes thought I did not. If I say "you are wrong", than I don't mean that I blame you for making a mistake, but that I have a different view (wich could be a fact or an opinion).

    And, /of course/, if you make contradictions -like calling me /fifthcolumnist/ and PPI /fundamentalist/ at the same time-, or plain insults -like /stupid/-, or other defamations -like /radical/-, you would just have been /creative/ in your descriptions. Haven't you been? Come on.

      2. My "denial" is essential. Being insulting or scornful requires the *intent* to do so (or at least "dolus eventualis" - I don't know the term in English), and if I say that it is NOT my intent, *you have to accept that as a fact*.

    That would require me trusting your statement. If you /apologize/ in one mail while, in the same mail, continue calling /radicals/ all those who doesn't give up in demanding our goals -by the way, you considered our goals as /esoteric/! (your mail: 4-XII-09, 10:14)-, believe me: I don't trust your excuses.

      Even when I called you a "fifth column" at some time, that was about your opinions.
      A "fifth column" - as you know - is some who works for the "ennemy". Which was perfectly appropriate

    Me, working for the pro-copyright lobby? Your excuses cannot be trustable when you continue defamating me again, and again. Can anyone find serious to say in the same mail "/and if I say that it is NOT my intent/ (to insult me)/, *you have to accept that as a fact*/", and "/even when I called you a 'fifth column'/ [...] */was perfectly appropriate/*". I'm not here to be insulted, moderate yourself.

      And, frankly, my patience is not infinite.

    I have no doubt on that; actually I find it quite finite -from the first mails you have used that stuff I wholeheartedly reject-.

      This morning I tried another shock effect, calling you "amusing". *Should I use even stronger words* to clarify my point?

    What is this? Do you even dare to open & publicly menace me with further insults? This is new. Hope that insulting in this PPI list cannot be for free. So now, Reinier, just debate within the limits of politeness; nobody prevents you from debating, simply I won't tolerate that stuff from you.

                                                                                                 Carlos Ayala
                                                                                                 ( Aiarakoa )

                                                                          Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman

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    Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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