[pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots

[Andrew Norton]

Reinier, If you had these concerns with the document, as great as these 
concerns seem to be, why is it that you've waited until now to offer to 
write an alternative. Why didn't you make this offer 3-4 *MONTHS* ago, 
or best of all, turn up to the meetings where the contents were discussed?

An inverted pyramid format is great for a press release, or news 
article. A manifesto though, is not either. A manifesto is a statement 
of intent, of political positioning that does not require that kind of 
structure. Indeed, look at similar documents, including political 
manifesto's of other parties, and indeed constitution documents. They're 
not in that style.

You say "if you want to keep NL on board", do you speak for the Dutch 
Pirate Party, for ScriptumLibre or for yourself in this matter? It's 
very hard to tell. As far as I'm aware, since Leon stepped down, Samir's 
in charge of the party, and he is the one the party nominated to deal 
with the manifesto, including voting.

I've also read most of the emails of the past few weeks - just about 
caught up - and my impression of you, gleamed from your writings, is 
that of a lawyer. We are not dealing with legal cases here, we're 
dealing with policital ones. In court, briefs rely on logic, fact, and a 
touch of persuasiveness. politics is 10% fact, and the rest is appealing 
to emotion. Look at all the anti-terrorism legislation made in the last 
10 years, or copyright legislation. Thre's little to no facts backing 
them up, and despite that being pointed out a lot, its the emotional 
arguments for the legislation that wins, trampling the fact-based 
arguments against.

Politics and law might be related, insofar as there are many lawyers in 
politics. However, litigating the law, is radically different from 
trying to get into a position to write them. This is something you don't 
seem to grasp. People are creatures of emotion, so emotion is what we 
have to appeal to.

To get back on topic, the point of the manifesto is basically a written 
Venn diagram of all our party positions. some don't like it, say 'well 
this isn't going far enough'. Thats the point. If you as a party want to 
go more extreme, they can. This is something that came up with I think 
the Swedish party, that had a point about elimination, where someone 
else had reduction, and didn't like 'reform' as it implied something 
other than elimination. but basically, the intent is that it's a 
straightforward statement of the common level of all parties. And, 
remember Reinier, two 'different' pirate parties have existed in France, 
and Finland, if the Dutch party forks, which is just what happened in 
France, then so be it, the movement will adapt, and grow.

Andrew


Reinier Bakels wrote:
> I will write a different "Manifesto" which will be ready in due time 
> before the Helsinki meeting (I am now in the US so I don't have much 
> time to work on it). All three present Manifesto versions start with an 
> elaborate expose about human rights and democracy. I don't think that is 
> useful. Firstly, for communication reasons the Manifesto imnsho must be 
> structured in the "inverted pyramid" format typical for journalism and 
> advertising. Secondly, the human rights argument is not the strongest 
> political argument we have for PP objectives, and may even be construed 
> adversely. For advertising/communication reasons, we must refrain from 
> arguments that are not 100% solid. Thirdly, I want to avoid the 
> impression that PP is another state reform party (which has a very 
> different connotation in different member states).
> If you want to keep NL on board of the PP movement, please consider my 
> forthcoming proposal - at least.
> Finally, this is not an attempt to start another flame war!
> 
> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, 
> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, 
> Yassou, Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The 
> Netherlands telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  
> fax +31 79 316 7221
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Ayala Vargas" 
> <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
> To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:23 PM
> Subject: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots
> 
> 
>> Hello:
>>
>> Today and until 23th of January, 2009, in PIRATA we're going to decide 
>> which of 3 final drafts of Pirate Manifesto do we prefer:
>>
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_A
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_B
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_C
>>
>> How are things regarding Pirate Manifesto in the rest of pirate 
>> parties? Remember that, in just 2 weeks, we have the Helsinki 
>> Conference. Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Carlos Ayala
>>
>> ( Aiarakoa )
>>
>>
>> Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general 
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general