[pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots

Thu Jan 15 01:49:14 CET 2009

Thx4 your since comments.
Some preliminary answers.
First, my schedule simply did not allow me to react earlier.
Second, w8&c, the text I have in mind will be less rather than more 
legalistic. It is difficult, but I sincerely believe one must get directly 
to the point.
Third, I envisage a political document, not a formal ("legal") statute. It 
should be an appealing text. The German PP text will serve as an example
Fourth, should law play a role for a law maker? It my sounds contradictory, 
but - to make a long story short - yes, in order to prevent statements that 
will disqualify the PP *immediately* as unrealistic. Imho the challenge is 
rather to make very nasty proposals that still fit into any conceivable 
framework.
Finally, the Dutch PP is close to dead, but I try to involve people from 
ScriptumLibre. Remmebr that in NL it is relatively easy to found a new 
political party - so I feel a responsibility.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Norton" <andrew.norton at pirate-party.us>
To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots

Reinier, If you had these concerns with the document, as great as these
concerns seem to be, why is it that you've waited until now to offer to
write an alternative. Why didn't you make this offer 3-4 *MONTHS* ago,
or best of all, turn up to the meetings where the contents were discussed?

An inverted pyramid format is great for a press release, or news
article. A manifesto though, is not either. A manifesto is a statement
of intent, of political positioning that does not require that kind of
structure. Indeed, look at similar documents, including political
manifesto's of other parties, and indeed constitution documents. They're
not in that style.

You say "if you want to keep NL on board", do you speak for the Dutch
Pirate Party, for ScriptumLibre or for yourself in this matter? It's
very hard to tell. As far as I'm aware, since Leon stepped down, Samir's
in charge of the party, and he is the one the party nominated to deal
with the manifesto, including voting.

I've also read most of the emails of the past few weeks - just about
caught up - and my impression of you, gleamed from your writings, is
that of a lawyer. We are not dealing with legal cases here, we're
dealing with policital ones. In court, briefs rely on logic, fact, and a
touch of persuasiveness. politics is 10% fact, and the rest is appealing
to emotion. Look at all the anti-terrorism legislation made in the last
10 years, or copyright legislation. Thre's little to no facts backing
them up, and despite that being pointed out a lot, its the emotional
arguments for the legislation that wins, trampling the fact-based
arguments against.

Politics and law might be related, insofar as there are many lawyers in
politics. However, litigating the law, is radically different from
trying to get into a position to write them. This is something you don't
seem to grasp. People are creatures of emotion, so emotion is what we
have to appeal to.

To get back on topic, the point of the manifesto is basically a written
Venn diagram of all our party positions. some don't like it, say 'well
this isn't going far enough'. Thats the point. If you as a party want to
go more extreme, they can. This is something that came up with I think
the Swedish party, that had a point about elimination, where someone
else had reduction, and didn't like 'reform' as it implied something
other than elimination. but basically, the intent is that it's a
straightforward statement of the common level of all parties. And,
remember Reinier, two 'different' pirate parties have existed in France,
and Finland, if the Dutch party forks, which is just what happened in
France, then so be it, the movement will adapt, and grow.

Andrew

Reinier Bakels wrote:
> I will write a different "Manifesto" which will be ready in due time 
> before the Helsinki meeting (I am now in the US so I don't have much time 
> to work on it). All three present Manifesto versions start with an 
> elaborate expose about human rights and democracy. I don't think that is 
> useful. Firstly, for communication reasons the Manifesto imnsho must be 
> structured in the "inverted pyramid" format typical for journalism and 
> advertising. Secondly, the human rights argument is not the strongest 
> political argument we have for PP objectives, and may even be construed 
> adversely. For advertising/communication reasons, we must refrain from 
> arguments that are not 100% solid. Thirdly, I want to avoid the impression 
> that PP is another state reform party (which has a very different 
> connotation in different member states).
> If you want to keep NL on board of the PP movement, please consider my 
> forthcoming proposal - at least.
> Finally, this is not an attempt to start another flame war!
>
> Groeten, Grüße, Regards, Cordialement, Hälsningar, Ciao, Saygilar, 
> Üdvözlettel, Pozdrowienia, Kumusta, Adios, Oan't sjen, Ave, Doei, Yassou, 
> Yoroshiku, Slán, Vinarliga, Kær Kvedja
>>>> REINIER B. BAKELS PhD LL.M. MSc
> private: Johan Willem Frisostraat 149, 2713 CC Zoetermeer, The Netherlands 
> telephone: +31 79 316 3126, GSM ("Handy") +31 6 4988 6490,  fax +31 79 316 
> 7221
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Ayala Vargas" 
> <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
> To: "Pirate Parties International -- General Talk" 
> <pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 3:23 PM
> Subject: [pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots
>
>
>> Hello:
>>
>> Today and until 23th of January, 2009, in PIRATA we're going to decide 
>> which of 3 final drafts of Pirate Manifesto do we prefer:
>>
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_A
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_B
>> - http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Draft_C
>>
>> How are things regarding Pirate Manifesto in the rest of pirate parties? 
>> Remember that, in just 2 weeks, we have the Helsinki Conference. Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Carlos Ayala
>>
>> ( Aiarakoa )
>>
>>
>> Partido Pirata National Board's Chairman
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general

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