[pp.int.general] Reinier & PPNL

Fri Jan 16 12:03:00 CET 2009

Hi,

I understand that the Manifesto is mainly about "philosophy", not "action".
Philosophy without action doesn't work, but the opposite is also true:
action without philosophy lacks to achieve higher goals.

The "action" needs to be done mainly in a national level. Eventually,
international "action" is also needed, ie. Europarlament.

But now, before the "action", we need some solid and common grounds on
philosophy: the Manifesto.
With the Manifesto, it'll be easier to grow as a movement, so we will be
able to do more and more effective "actions".

About that FUD in the newspaper, we can also note some things:
* it's an "action" of our enemies
* but it's not a single action, they have their "philosophy" behind all of
their actions. This is how they achieve to attack in all fronts, with the
appearance of being coherent with themselves.
* without their "philosophy", they would had never achieved so much
restrictions and "intellectual property" laws.

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Reinier Bakels <r.bakels at pr.unimaas.nl>wrote:

>  It is simple: in my opinion there is a very urgent need to address the
> "jihad" of record companies and other greedy copyright owners(*). From some
> of the mail we exchange, I get the impression that the PP movement has not
> the kind of hands-on mentality that is imho badly needed to counter the
> persistent FUD campaigns for copyright enforcement.
> Then the conclusion is obvious: leave the PP to the philosophers and look
> for alternatives for *real* political action.
> Of course I hope that I am mistaken and that PP eventually also has the
> ambition to hands-on action.
>
> (*) For those of you who understand Dutch: recently there was again a very
> unpleasant "FUD" article in a major Dutch newspaper, an interview vwith the
> director of an organisation that promnotes criminal prosecution of copyright
> infringers: "If it is free, it is illegal":
> http://www.volkskrant.nl/multimedia/article1120882.ece/Is_het_gratis_Dan_is_het_niet_legaal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Core TX <coretx at gmail.com>
> *To:* Carlos Ayala Vargas <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
> *Cc:* pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net ; Reinier Bakels<r.bakels at pr.unimaas.nl>
> *Sent:* Friday, January 16, 2009 3:26 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [pp.int.general] Reinier & PPNL
>
> Comments below.
>
> 2009/1/15 Carlos Ayala Vargas <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>
>
>> Core TX wrote:
>>
>>> When it comes to Reinier his statement,
>>>
>> First of all:
>>
>> - you are Piraten Partij representative, not him; I don't know why don't
>> you rebuke him for making those menaces -he didn't just threaten us with
>> Piraten Partij's withdrawal from PPI (very surprising, considering how he
>> talks about the possibility of withdrawing of European Union), but also
>> threatens Piraten Partij (maybe if you don't agree with him) with creating a
>> new party from ScriptumLibre! ("/finally, the Dutch PP is close to dead, but
>> I try to involve people from ScriptumLibre. Remmebr that in NL it is
>> relatively easy to found a new political party - so I feel a
>> responsibility/")-; I don't know why do you consent his behaviour
>>
>>
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/2009-January/002549.html
>
>
>
> Vrijschrift/ScriptumLibre ideologie seems to equal Pirate ideologie.
> However, we ( PPNL ) where founded after the swedish "Call to arms" All
> members have agreed that PPNL will follow the PPI footsteps. The Swedish
> Party is the origin, thus we will allow them to veto.Communicateing a
> mandate is different from communicateing a ideologie. I sincerely hope you
> can see the difference. We wish X  because we believe in Y.
> Choices should be made because of facts, not because of someone his
> believes.If you think differently, you should consider reinstateing the
> spanish inquisition, join the Jihad or start bloweing up cars with the ETA.
> We'll see how much succes hou will have. ( Palestinians got their state
> /after/ they stopped their Jihad & started diplomacy. But they did not drop
> their ideologie )
> ( Because of you temperament, i'd like to say that this is not personal
> gesture or insult, just a figure of speech, so dont flame please )
>
>
>>
>> - he's talking about a new proposal, but where is such proposal? Helsinki
>> Conference starts on 30th of January, and it would be recommendable to know
>> whether pirate parties sign any of the drafts or not prior to that, which
>> would require a reasonably length internal balloting period; when is he
>> willing to announce his proposal? He is plainly irresponsible.
>
>
> No the people not proposeing anything are the ones irresponsible. And that
> group of people does not include you, or Reinier.
> But it does include me while i am responsible for the dutch contribution.
> As the dutch representative, i hereby formally declare my trust in Reinier
> his words.
> And if you trust me thus PPNL, you know he will keep his word.
>
>
>> I stand by his side. I see verry little added value in the new "manifest"
>>> when compared to the original swedish "declaration of principles' that i use
>>> as a main guideline.
>>>
>> Why do you use the quotes for manifest? About the /little added value/,
>> first of all, the Swedish "/declaration of principles/" is just the Swedish
>> one; Pirate Manifesto is meant to be our common one; about differences, let
>> me show you some examples comparing that Swedish (do you mean this one <
>> http://www.piratpartiet.se/international/english>?) with, e.g., Draft C:
>>
>
> Reinier already pointed out wich dangers it might provide. The only profit
> we make is that of union. United we stand, devided we fall.
> Therefore the international /manifest/ must be watertight. So please be
> aware of the fact that i did not choose *any* /manifest/ yet.
>
>
>> - general principles
>> * Piratpartiet "/wants to fundamentally reform copyright law, get rid of
>> the patent system//, and ensure that citizens' rights to privacy are
>> respected/"
>> * Draft C also wants to protect rule of law, pressumption of innocence and
>> right to a fair trial, fight against discrimination, deal with Information
>> Society, ask for Government transparency & accountability, etc
>>
>
> It looks promiseing, yet you failed to persuade the Swedish. Do you know
> why ?
> I doubt you do, and are simply trying to push a agenda. ( One i personally
> do like )
> ( Temperament notice: Not a insult, just my perception, so please do not
> flame )
>
>
>> - about patents
>> * Piratpartiet "/wants to /[...]/ get rid of the patent system/"
>> * Draft C only aims to reform the patent system, though allowing PPSE to
>> get rid of it *in the Swedish scope
>> *
>
>
> When you get rid of it, you eventually end up with a "alternative" . The
> difference is merely one that only exists in words.
> Yet again, a fine example of the difference between, communicateing a
> ideologie, versus communicateing a direct step forward c.q ( partial )
> solution. ( One that binds you ! )
>
>
>>
>> - about author's rights
>> * Piratpartiet wants "/non-commercial use/" to "/be free from day one/"
>> * Draft C only talks about non-commercial filesharing, giving room for
>> pirate parties to decide what to do with other issues like derivative works
>> and such
>>
>
> The manifest is about union, Draft C devides us on this point.
> Besides, i agree with Piratpartiet on this one, and it does not exclude nor
> include derrivative works etc. ( completely different topic )
>
>
>> - about non-core issues
>> * Piratpartiet closes the door to non-core issues
>> * Draft C opens the door, for each pirate party, to include non-core
>> issues as long as they don't oppose or contradict the agreed core issues; it
>> also talks about allowing citizens to express in non-core issues, to make us
>> know the right path
>>
>
> This is just plain logic or is it not ? Why include it at all ?
> We just need to include what we all stand fore. Not what devides us. Unless
> you would like to create a manual for our  opponents.
> More importantly, it would cost us our leverage.
>
>
>> Etc, etc. Do you still believe that there little added value there? There
>> is great added value, being Pirate Manifesto conceived as a /Venn diagram/
>> of our goals the most important one -remember, some day will have to act
>> together in the Europarliament, the WIPO meetings, the UN sessions, etc ...
>> how would we do it if we even don't know what do we have in common?-.
>> **
>>
>
> I agree there should be a uniteing manifest. So does Reinier. I just do not
> wish to rush it OR include dangerous statements that lateron can damage ALL
> partys
> This is as important as writeing a constitution. We will not even simply
> choose the best of all available options. We will only choose to sign if it
> is perfect.
> Unless all other partys sign, since i'd take that as proof of our
> misconception.
>
>
>> As a closeing note, i would like to point out that within a political
>>> party choices are to be made in a democratic fashion.
>>>
>> I'm pretty sure of that; even, remember that I suggested you -as you
>> weren't able for the amendments period to contact your fellow party members-
>> to not cast Piraten Partij's votes if they were not properly discussed and
>> voted, so I think that this time, having enough time -and having the
>> previous case in mind-, your signature will represent Piraten Partij's.
>> Regards,
>
>
>
> I'd be embarrased if i have to ask all members to vote on these drafts.They
> are all hard to reach and hell would break loose. I will only propose a
> manifest, or drafts after they are all debated.
> ( Half of them are not intelligent enough to think about this, and will ask
> me or Reinier if it is "good" or not. )
> We already have concencus about our ideology. We just need to say, "This
> manifest does fit" or "This manifest does not fit"  .
> Then we continue focus on solutions. My perception tell me you are stil in
> the ideology fase while trying to create a ideology. While Reinier is in the
> solution fase, while trying to create a solution.
> Maybe we need  2 different statements, one proposeing a ideology, and one
> telling people what the solution looks like.
>
> United we stand, devided we fall.
>
> Samir.
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
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