[pp.int.general] Reinier & PPNL

Fri Jan 16 11:53:12 CET 2009

It is simple: in my opinion there is a very urgent need to address the "jihad" of record companies and other greedy copyright owners(*). From some of the mail we exchange, I get the impression that the PP movement has not the kind of hands-on mentality that is imho badly needed to counter the persistent FUD campaigns for copyright enforcement.
Then the conclusion is obvious: leave the PP to the philosophers and look for alternatives for *real* political action.
Of course I hope that I am mistaken and that PP eventually also has the ambition to hands-on action.

(*) For those of you who understand Dutch: recently there was again a very unpleasant "FUD" article in a major Dutch newspaper, an interview vwith the director of an organisation that promnotes criminal prosecution of copyright infringers: "If it is free, it is illegal": http://www.volkskrant.nl/multimedia/article1120882.ece/Is_het_gratis_Dan_is_het_niet_legaal
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Core TX 
  To: Carlos Ayala Vargas 
  Cc: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net ; Reinier Bakels 
  Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Reinier & PPNL

  Comments below.

  2009/1/15 Carlos Ayala Vargas <aiarakoa at yahoo.es>

    Core TX wrote:

      When it comes to Reinier his statement,

    First of all:

    - you are Piraten Partij representative, not him; I don't know why don't you rebuke him for making those menaces -he didn't just threaten us with Piraten Partij's withdrawal from PPI (very surprising, considering how he talks about the possibility of withdrawing of European Union), but also threatens Piraten Partij (maybe if you don't agree with him) with creating a new party from ScriptumLibre! ("/finally, the Dutch PP is close to dead, but I try to involve people from ScriptumLibre. Remmebr that in NL it is relatively easy to found a new political party - so I feel a responsibility/")-; I don't know why do you consent his behaviour

    http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/2009-January/002549.html

  Vrijschrift/ScriptumLibre ideologie seems to equal Pirate ideologie. However, we ( PPNL ) where founded after the swedish "Call to arms" All members have agreed that PPNL will follow the PPI footsteps. The Swedish Party is the origin, thus we will allow them to veto.Communicateing a mandate is different from communicateing a ideologie. I sincerely hope you can see the difference. We wish X  because we believe in Y.
  Choices should be made because of facts, not because of someone his believes.If you think differently, you should consider reinstateing the spanish inquisition, join the Jihad or start bloweing up cars with the ETA.
  We'll see how much succes hou will have. ( Palestinians got their state /after/ they stopped their Jihad & started diplomacy. But they did not drop their ideologie ) 
  ( Because of you temperament, i'd like to say that this is not personal gesture or insult, just a figure of speech, so dont flame please )

    - he's talking about a new proposal, but where is such proposal? Helsinki Conference starts on 30th of January, and it would be recommendable to know whether pirate parties sign any of the drafts or not prior to that, which would require a reasonably length internal balloting period; when is he willing to announce his proposal? He is plainly irresponsible.

  No the people not proposeing anything are the ones irresponsible. And that group of people does not include you, or Reinier.
  But it does include me while i am responsible for the dutch contribution.
  As the dutch representative, i hereby formally declare my trust in Reinier his words.
  And if you trust me thus PPNL, you know he will keep his word.

      I stand by his side. I see verry little added value in the new "manifest" when compared to the original swedish "declaration of principles' that i use as a main guideline.

    Why do you use the quotes for manifest? About the /little added value/, first of all, the Swedish "/declaration of principles/" is just the Swedish one; Pirate Manifesto is meant to be our common one; about differences, let me show you some examples comparing that Swedish (do you mean this one <http://www.piratpartiet.se/international/english>?) with, e.g., Draft C:

  Reinier already pointed out wich dangers it might provide. The only profit we make is that of union. United we stand, devided we fall.
  Therefore the international /manifest/ must be watertight. So please be aware of the fact that i did not choose *any* /manifest/ yet.

    - general principles
    * Piratpartiet "/wants to fundamentally reform copyright law, get rid of the patent system//, and ensure that citizens' rights to privacy are respected/"
    * Draft C also wants to protect rule of law, pressumption of innocence and right to a fair trial, fight against discrimination, deal with Information Society, ask for Government transparency & accountability, etc

  It looks promiseing, yet you failed to persuade the Swedish. Do you know why ?
  I doubt you do, and are simply trying to push a agenda. ( One i personally do like )
  ( Temperament notice: Not a insult, just my perception, so please do not flame )

    - about patents
    * Piratpartiet "/wants to /[...]/ get rid of the patent system/"
    * Draft C only aims to reform the patent system, though allowing PPSE to get rid of it *in the Swedish scope
    *

  When you get rid of it, you eventually end up with a "alternative" . The difference is merely one that only exists in words.
  Yet again, a fine example of the difference between, communicateing a ideologie, versus communicateing a direct step forward c.q ( partial ) solution. ( One that binds you ! )

    - about author's rights
    * Piratpartiet wants "/non-commercial use/" to "/be free from day one/"
    * Draft C only talks about non-commercial filesharing, giving room for pirate parties to decide what to do with other issues like derivative works and such

  The manifest is about union, Draft C devides us on this point.
  Besides, i agree with Piratpartiet on this one, and it does not exclude nor include derrivative works etc. ( completely different topic )

    - about non-core issues
    * Piratpartiet closes the door to non-core issues
    * Draft C opens the door, for each pirate party, to include non-core issues as long as they don't oppose or contradict the agreed core issues; it also talks about allowing citizens to express in non-core issues, to make us know the right path

  This is just plain logic or is it not ? Why include it at all ? 
  We just need to include what we all stand fore. Not what devides us. Unless you would like to create a manual for our  opponents.
  More importantly, it would cost us our leverage.

    Etc, etc. Do you still believe that there little added value there? There is great added value, being Pirate Manifesto conceived as a /Venn diagram/ of our goals the most important one -remember, some day will have to act together in the Europarliament, the WIPO meetings, the UN sessions, etc ... how would we do it if we even don't know what do we have in common?-.
    **

  I agree there should be a uniteing manifest. So does Reinier. I just do not wish to rush it OR include dangerous statements that lateron can damage ALL partys
  This is as important as writeing a constitution. We will not even simply choose the best of all available options. We will only choose to sign if it is perfect.
  Unless all other partys sign, since i'd take that as proof of our misconception. 

      As a closeing note, i would like to point out that within a political party choices are to be made in a democratic fashion.

    I'm pretty sure of that; even, remember that I suggested you -as you weren't able for the amendments period to contact your fellow party members- to not cast Piraten Partij's votes if they were not properly discussed and voted, so I think that this time, having enough time -and having the previous case in mind-, your signature will represent Piraten Partij's. Regards,

  I'd be embarrased if i have to ask all members to vote on these drafts.They are all hard to reach and hell would break loose. I will only propose a manifest, or drafts after they are all debated.
  ( Half of them are not intelligent enough to think about this, and will ask me or Reinier if it is "good" or not. )
  We already have concencus about our ideology. We just need to say, "This manifest does fit" or "This manifest does not fit"  .
  Then we continue focus on solutions. My perception tell me you are stil in the ideology fase while trying to create a ideology. While Reinier is in the solution fase, while trying to create a solution.
  Maybe we need  2 different statements, one proposeing a ideology, and one telling people what the solution looks like.

  United we stand, devided we fall.

  Samir.

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