[pp.int.general] Pirate Manifesto: status of internal ballots

[Per von Zweigbergk]

17 jan 2009 kl. 11.06 skrev Reinier Bakels:

> the present manifesto's start from a legal perspective by putting  
> human rights first


Have you actually read the Pirate Manifesto drafts lately? I think you  
have formed an opinion about the contents of the drafts through your  
endless discussions on this list that you have forgotten what it  
actually says. And it is about this distorted image of the manifesto  
drafts that you are talking about.

 From draft A (draft B and C are identical, except for different  
formatting). I chose draft A because it illustrates my point most  
clearly in this case, although I normally prefer the formatting in  
draft B.

> Full democracy can only be achieved through defending civil rights  
> and liberties by protecting the rule of law. This is the true  
> foundation of democracy. By defending five basic human rights:
>  * freedom of speech
>  * privacy
>  * presumption of innocence and the right to a fair trial
>  * freedom from discrimination, and equality before the law
>  * the right to life and moral and physical integrity.
> For understanding the context of the last point, we can say that  
> everyone has the right to life and to physical and moral integrity,  
> and under no circumstances may be subjected to torture or to inhuman  
> or degrading punishment or treatment and may not in any way be  
> discriminated against on account of birth, race, sex, religion,  
> opinion or any other personal or social condition or circumstance.

There is no specific legalistic argument made about the entire body of  
any human rights legislation, there are five specific aspects to basic  
human rights in a purely philosophical perspective put forward.

So please stop arguing with everyone that the Pirate Manifesto starts  
with a legalistic view on Human Rights, until you have re-read the  
actual manifesto proposals carefully, word for word, trying to ignore  
your preconceptions. And only post criticism of the manifesto by  
quoting exactly the passage you're criticizing. Otherwise, this is not  
a discussion about the manifesto, but instead a discussion on pirate  
political strategy in general or about personal opinions.

If you have forgotten, you can find the pirate manifesto drafts  
through https://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_Final_Drafts

Debate about the actual contents of the Pirate Manifesto draft is on- 
topic on this list, at least until a manifesto has been chosen. And I  
think such discussion should continue, as long as there is new  
arguments added to the discussion. I have seen a lot of posting from  
you lately Reiner, which much take a lot of time for you, but I still  
haven't seen your proposal for amendments to the Manifesto. It is  
already almost too late to submit it, but don't compound the error  
further.

Debates about the personal opinions and differences about  
interpretations about pirate philosophy, and whether a legalistic  
approach to human rights is useful to our movement might be  
interesting for a short time, and I have participated in the  
discussion for a few posts myself, but in the extent that it is  
currently discussed it is definitely off-topic.

I stopped posting regularly in this discussion when I realized I  
didn't have anything new to add to the discussion beyond what I had  
already posted. And I only post in these discussions when I have  
something new to say. Almost everybody else posting to this list seems  
to be capable of showing the same restraint. Why is this so difficult  
for Reiner and Carlos?

And Carlos, how do you have time to actually be chairman of your party  
and to do actual party related work with all the cyclical posting that  
you're doing on this list? It must be very time consuming for you also.
-- 
Per von Zweigbergk

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