[pp.int.general] Pirates Democracy - Liquid Democracy

[Martin Delius]

Hi

At first thanks a lot for the feedback and the statements so far.

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Reinier Bakels <rbakels at ffii.org> wrote:

>
>  In sum, I believe that there are tough policy questions for pirates
>>> that need an answer short term. Plans for the 22nd century can wait.  A
>>> rough vision is enough.
>>>
>>>
>> could you please point out how this relates to Liquid Feedback?
>>
>>  I am totally confused. Do you distinguish "liquid feedback" from "liquid
> democracy"?

Yes i must say that is a point in speaking about liquidfeedback. Of course
liquidfeedback is not supposed to accomplish proxy-voting and direct
political processes in means of liquid democracy in general. For mostly
practical reason it works with a certain set of rules defined by few
parameters (e.g. times for certain processes or parts of it; terms of use in
general; quori; implementation in partystructures) wich are not always in
sync with more theoretical specs for liquid democracy systems. For at least
one issue there is already a development in terms of setting up a LD
paradigm. LiquidFeedback uses a voting system working with free preferences
along with the Schulze-method <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method> for
example. U'll see that there are differences but not without reason.

Is there any point in advocating just internal liquid democracy?

Oh yes as we believe there is. If you would just take the educational effect
on smaller oder less smaller ^^ groups of interests, ngo's, local projects,
maybe schools, universities for account you must admit that there is good
chance in developing new forms and solutions for more participative
democratic systems with political educated and motivated participants. Wich
is exactly what we need to prevent ourselves from making the same mistakes
wich brought us together in party in the first place like maybe a general
disagreement between cultures within the same society because not dynamic
political processes, let's say maybe in copyright issues? forgiveness pls ^^

Anyway, Dutch PP was set up mistakenly wit h a *reduced* democracy that
> prevents ordinary members to vote directly. Under Dutch association law,
> such a structure is allowed, but it is notmally only used for associations
> of > 100000 members.
>
Thats sad. I say that because i strongly believe there are better ways even
if it means to improvise with the actual law. Anyway a system like LF is not
working without a closed group of participants and at least a general
agreement in how to use it and commitment so to speak.

>
> Anyway, I am allergic for ideas that pirates should change the political
> system itself.

You have point there because i am allergic to people speaking of a political
systems. Wich means structure, wich means editing and managing, wich means
algorithms and automatism. If you may see it that way: In the end there are
not many political forces who are free to speak about changing structure at
all. For now we have this freedom partly within structures and mostly from
without. I think we need to use this freedom now before it will be gone,
sublimented into structure.


> Because the situation widely varies by country

As i said you can easily change the defining parameters of LF  for your own
purposes and regulations in law as long as you are willing to accept that it
can not have an open circle of users and only is fun when it has a meaning.

, it is not straightforward to propose a better alternative to present-day
> structures, and getting them accepted is tedious.
>
I think it is very worth a try and the best way for getting things accepted
may always be being a good example to others.

martin


>
> reinier
> ____________________________________________________
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>



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