[pp.int.general] PPI board meeting minutes and some updates about the conference.

Sun Mar 4 17:42:57 CET 2012

Careful! What is your definition of a country? (The UK is a state divided
into countries, the US a country divided into states, and, going by German
wording, Germany is a country divided by countries).

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Rock Neurotiko <miguelglafuente at gmail.com>wrote:

> I think that if there is a Pirate Party in a country, it should vote.
>
> Of course, I said a country, not a part of it.
>
>
> 2012/3/4 Choms <choms at botmania.net>
>
>> imho, neither of all spanish territory pirate parties should have vote,
>> even less after this deplorable spectacle where they all should be ashamed.
>>
>>
>> 2012/3/4 Mozart <mozart.palmer at pirateparty.org.au>
>>
>>>   I like this suggestion:
>>>
>>> "I think one vote per country has worked quite well for PPI. In order to
>>> accomodate the situation in Spain I would suggest someone whom it is
>>> important to drafts an amendment of the PPI statutes that allows regional
>>> parties in exceptional circumstances to become ordinary members (maybe with
>>> only half a vote?) after the GA votes in favor of admitting that party as
>>> an ordinary member."
>>>
>>> But would say they should be given full vote when admitted. The
>>> situation in Spain does not seem to be working out at the moment, so a
>>> Pirate Confederation there is unlikely. They just don't seem to agree. And
>>> for now, PPES holds the Spanish vote I believe, even though PPCAT is a
>>> reportedly much larger party.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mozart.
>>>
>>> On 05/03/2012, at 12:19 AM, Justus Römeth wrote:
>>>
>>> Hola Isabela, hola rest of Galician parties
>>>
>>> While I understand the Galician/Catalonian position on this, and that
>>> circumventing the 1 voter per country makes totally sense for you, it just
>>> does not make sense from a German point of view:
>>> - Some local parties in Germany have more members than many national
>>> parties in other countries, going by member count alone is not a good
>>> starting point.
>>> - It is unlikely to happen in the near future, but if there is a rift
>>> within PPDE towards our position to PPI regional parties could start to ask
>>> for votes, too. Unless the other parties grow exceptionally by then this
>>> would 'allow' PPDE to 'swamp' PPI with regional/local parties if we
>>> institutionalize what you propose, bringing the rift within PPDE to PPI.
>>> - Even more problematic, an institutionalization of allowing regional
>>> parties into PPI could allow PPDE to effectively take over PPI if it would
>>> wish so. Not something I particularly would like to happen.
>>>
>>> So where does that leave us? The PPI rule of one country/one vote is
>>> obviously flawed when it comes to entities where it is unclear whether they
>>> are countries in our sense or not (Kosovo, Northern Cyprus, Flanders,
>>> Wallonia, and also Scotland are obvious examples). If you say that
>>> Catalonia and Galicia should get their own vote in PPI, why should Bavaria
>>> or Frisia not get one? But if they get one, why shouldn't Northern Frisia,
>>> the Sorbs, or Amsterdam (all entities that see themselves as somewhat
>>> different than the rest of their country), or Limburg and Lower Saxony (who
>>> see themselves as deserving the same rights as Bavaria and Friesland, since
>>> they are on the same political level within their country)?
>>>
>>> I personally am not a big fan of the organization of politics with the
>>> concept of nations (I am a German, but I don't quite understand why I
>>> should feel closer to someone in Munich compared to someone in Vienna,
>>> Berne, Luxembourg, Eupen, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague or Wroclaw). But I
>>> accept that this ambiguous concept is accepted by the vast majority of
>>> other people, that today's politics deal with this concept, that it is
>>> important to a lot of people, and that I won't be able to fundamentally
>>> change it.
>>>
>>> I think one vote per country has worked quite well for PPI. In order to
>>> accomodate the situation in Spain I would suggest someone whom it is
>>> important to drafts an amendment of the PPI statutes that allows regional
>>> parties in exceptional circumstances to become ordinary members (maybe with
>>> only half a vote?) after the GA votes in favor of admitting that party as
>>> an ordinary member.  (Maybe you could include non-opposition by the
>>> 'affected' national party, too). There is no guarantee that such an
>>> amendment would pass, however. This would then allow the members of PPI to
>>> decide on a possible Kosovarian PP when there is one, and not force them to
>>> make such a decision now.
>>>
>>> The more fundamental question is obviously whether there is a lot of use
>>> in having this discussion at all. Is an ordinary membership in PPI that
>>> important to PP-CAT and PP-GAL, keeping PPI's tasks and limitations in
>>> mind? Do PP-CAT and PP-GAL really disagree with PPES so much as far as PPI
>>> is concerned? Shouldn't this discussion instead focus on how we set up PPEU
>>> concerning national minorities (or at all), or how PPES could be reformed
>>> that it is not seen as such a big problem for the members of PP-CAT and
>>> PP-GAL?
>>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Kenneth Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat>wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Hi Isabel,
>>>>
>>>> It would be great to see some Galician Pirates in the forthcoming GA.
>>>> Please think about it! There's going to be 6 PP-ES delegates and 4 PP-CAT
>>>> delegates there, so, we can have a nice time with a lot of Pilsen beer :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kenneth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 04/03/12 10:59, Isabel Fernández wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Justus,
>>>>
>>>> We don't think PPI's job regulate between pirates parties either. That's
>>>> why we said we'll declare nothing of the sort.
>>>>
>>>> Our suggestion was based on the premise 'one legal territorial pirate
>>>> party - one vote' that we think it's a more fair than the actual
>>>> situation. We think PPI could give it some thought to this issue.
>>>>
>>>> We'd love to send a delegate to the GA, but rumours are saing that we'll
>>>> face elections next autumn at Galician Parlament and still there's a lot
>>>> work to do... we're not sure we can attend to Prague. Generally rumours
>>>> on this subject turn out to be true at the end. Maybe next time we are
>>>> able to send Galician Delegation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Isabel Fernandez.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 03/03/12 10:51, Justus Römeth wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Thank you Isabel (and the rest of PP-GAL),
>>>>
>>>> I don't think PPI's job is to regulate between individual pirate parties,
>>>> but rather to keep the movement growing, by providing infrastructure and a
>>>> place to meet for pirates who's country does not have a PP, and by helping
>>>> them through the early stages of forming a party. Therefore I don't think a
>>>> model that would give PPDE ~20 times as much voting power as the next
>>>> biggest party (PPSE is still not a member) would be appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> That is not to say that the current model of PPI concerning the situation
>>>> in Spain is optimal. It is not. I think your proposed solution would make
>>>> sense for something like PPEU, or a PPI with a much broadened scope (as
>>>> well as institutions like the EP, but that is a different matter). As of
>>>> yet I don't see the latter happening, however.
>>>>
>>>> Are you (PP-GAL) planning to send a delegate to the General assembly in
>>>> Prague?
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> Justus
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:09 AM, HerNenya <isabel.fdez at mundo-r.com> <isabel.fdez at mundo-r.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I do apologize since last message was my first mail to this list. I'm
>>>> not used to deal w/ digests.
>>>>
>>>> I repeat the message for better reading.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards to all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Isabel Fernandez.
>>>> -----------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> This is a message made by the members of public relations team for
>>>> PP-GAL. It is agreed by all the members of mentioned team and we want to
>>>> send it through our link in this mailing list of PPI members so it must
>>>> be understood in the name of PP-GAL party and not from the sender who
>>>> forwards this message.
>>>>
>>>> Since there were direct references to PP-GAL in this list and the way we
>>>> organize ourselves in Spain, we consider it is important to be heard in
>>>> our oppinion before of the rest of pirates parties of the world.
>>>>
>>>> First of all, we would like to say we are 2 months old as a political
>>>> party in Spain and our foundation is based on the structure of Spain as
>>>> a country formed by autonomies as such established in the Spanish
>>>> Constitution Act [1] in article #148 in order to organize ourselves in
>>>> the Spaniard territory. Moreover we have our own idiosyncrasy as
>>>> language and culture quite different from other spaniard territories.
>>>> Therefore we are an approved political party by the competent Ministry
>>>> with same rights and duties as PP-ES and PP-CAT.
>>>>
>>>> As Kenneth from PP-CAT said in other previous message, we are
>>>> encouraging a confederation at country level to organize common tasks
>>>> that affect us as a nation such the cases of #megacomplaint and
>>>> #opColapso (fighting against Sinde-Wert law [2]) that we are supporting
>>>> PP-ES, PP-CAT and PP-GAL. Last week we have created a mailing list
>>>> called pirata-34 to discuss those affairs.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the subject about who can vote as a country or by the amount
>>>> of pirate members, we consider system of countries is not fair precisely
>>>> because of proportion of the population densities and pirates members. A
>>>> possible fair solution (as a suggestion) to this matter could be that
>>>> depending on the number of members from each pirate party, each party
>>>> will provide a proportional amount of the contingency fund of PPI, as
>>>> well, each party would have the proportional weight in PPI decisions.
>>>>
>>>> Refering to mentions about how to organize internally the different
>>>> pirate parties in Spain, we considered that this mailing list is not the
>>>> appropiate place to discuss about it, so we are not going to declare
>>>> anything here.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm
>>>> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Public Relations Team of PP-GAL.http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Isabel Fdez
>>>> GPG EA63DF8E
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talkpp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.nethttp://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>  ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talkpp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.nethttp://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talkpp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.nethttp://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Miguel García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko
> Vocal de la Junta Directiva Nacional del Partido Pirata.
> Coordinador de Jóvenes Piratas en Madrid.
>
> "Libertad en lugar de miedo." - "Información libre, sociedad libre."
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
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