[pp.int.general] PPI board meeting minutes and some updates about the conference.
Kenneth Peiruza
kenneth at pirata.cat
Sun Mar 4 20:21:25 CET 2012
I would personally either agree with 1 country 1 vote where Spanish vote
belongs to a confederation-umbrella or 1 territory-1 vote.
Regards!
K.
On 04/03/12 19:55, Justus Römeth wrote:
> @ Rock: The UK is made of 4 countries: England, Wales, Scotland and
> Northern Ireland (see also the 4 UK FIFA members). However, each of
> this country has arguably less rights in domestic issues than a German
> Bundesland.
>
> Other than that I would again like to point to my idea of changing the
> statutes so that in exceptional situations regional parties can become
> full members if the GA agrees (which is not black and white me thinks).
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Rock Neurotiko
> <miguelglafuente at gmail.com <mailto:miguelglafuente at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I think that the solution it's that all party of the country talks
> and takes decisions, and vote like a country.
>
> I hope that it wouldn't be an utopy.
>
> It would can be a comission to do it. The members of the comission
> of every party asks to his own party. Right now in Spain we are
> three parties, it's perfect to do it.
>
> 2012/3/4 Dario <i at dario.im <mailto:i at dario.im>>
>
> There is something I don't simply get: why must it be a black
> or white solution?
>
> I suggested an idea based on agreement between pirate parties
> sharing "country recognised internationally" (I won't ask
> where this definition applies to countries like Kosovo, but it
> is not the main issue).
>
> Each country can have several pirate parties. Indeed, this is
> already true in Spain and Germany, and potentially in USA and
> UK. Spanish pirate parties can agree to have "regional vote"
> (each party has a vote and full membership in PPI), while
> Germany can remain as "national vote" (only one vote, a
> "confederated" one). The same can apply to USA and UK.
>
> Even we can agree in to allow sub-agrupation of votes in a way
> like PP-US as a whole agree to act as one but Texas (just the
> first state that popped in my head). Going far away, you can
> have PP-US East group and PP-US West group (for whatever
> reason you can imagine, although it is probably a weird
> example) being two votes and members of PPI.
>
> This is a proposal based on agreement between adults, probably
> backed by e-democracry in several cases. There is no need to
> have a rigid rule when you can have one rule that enable to
> debate, agree and sign formally how different pirate parties
> relate between them in the same country.
>
> El 4 de marzo de 2012 18:01, Rock Neurotiko
> <miguelglafuente at gmail.com <mailto:miguelglafuente at gmail.com>>
> escribió:
>
> A country recognised internationally.
> UK have two: Scothland and England.
>
> USA have 48 states, but it's just one country.
> Spain have 19 CCAA, but it's just one country.
>
> Imagine that every state of USA it's a country with
> vote... The PPI subjugated tu USA.
>
> The only way to have an egalitarian PPI with votes, it's
> to make it by official country recognised internationally.
>
> Cheers!
>
> 2012/3/4 Justus Römeth <squig at dfpx.de <mailto:squig at dfpx.de>>
>
> Careful! What is your definition of a country? (The UK
> is a state divided into countries, the US a country
> divided into states, and, going by German wording,
> Germany is a country divided by countries).
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Rock Neurotiko
> <miguelglafuente at gmail.com
> <mailto:miguelglafuente at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I think that if there is a Pirate Party in a
> country, it should vote.
>
> Of course, I said a country, not a part of it.
>
>
> 2012/3/4 Choms <choms at botmania.net
> <mailto:choms at botmania.net>>
>
> imho, neither of all spanish territory pirate
> parties should have vote, even less after this
> deplorable spectacle where they all should be
> ashamed.
>
>
> 2012/3/4 Mozart
> <mozart.palmer at pirateparty.org.au
> <mailto:mozart.palmer at pirateparty.org.au>>
>
> I like this suggestion:
>
> "I think one vote per country has worked
> quite well for PPI. In order to accomodate
> the situation in Spain I would suggest
> someone whom it is important to drafts an
> amendment of the PPI statutes that allows
> regional parties in exceptional
> circumstances to become ordinary members
> (maybe with only half a vote?) after the
> GA votes in favor of admitting that party
> as an ordinary member."
>
> But would say they should be given full
> vote when admitted. The situation in Spain
> does not seem to be working out at the
> moment, so a Pirate Confederation there is
> unlikely. They just don't seem to agree.
> And for now, PPES holds the Spanish vote I
> believe, even though PPCAT is a reportedly
> much larger party.
>
> Regards,
> Mozart.
>
> On 05/03/2012, at 12:19 AM, Justus Römeth
> wrote:
>
>> Hola Isabela, hola rest of Galician parties
>>
>> While I understand the
>> Galician/Catalonian position on this, and
>> that circumventing the 1 voter per
>> country makes totally sense for you, it
>> just does not make sense from a German
>> point of view:
>> - Some local parties in Germany have more
>> members than many national parties in
>> other countries, going by member count
>> alone is not a good starting point.
>> - It is unlikely to happen in the near
>> future, but if there is a rift within
>> PPDE towards our position to PPI regional
>> parties could start to ask for votes,
>> too. Unless the other parties grow
>> exceptionally by then this would 'allow'
>> PPDE to 'swamp' PPI with regional/local
>> parties if we institutionalize what you
>> propose, bringing the rift within PPDE to
>> PPI.
>> - Even more problematic, an
>> institutionalization of allowing regional
>> parties into PPI could allow PPDE to
>> effectively take over PPI if it would
>> wish so. Not something I particularly
>> would like to happen.
>>
>> So where does that leave us? The PPI rule
>> of one country/one vote is obviously
>> flawed when it comes to entities where it
>> is unclear whether they are countries in
>> our sense or not (Kosovo, Northern
>> Cyprus, Flanders, Wallonia, and also
>> Scotland are obvious examples). If you
>> say that Catalonia and Galicia should get
>> their own vote in PPI, why should Bavaria
>> or Frisia not get one? But if they get
>> one, why shouldn't Northern Frisia, the
>> Sorbs, or Amsterdam (all entities that
>> see themselves as somewhat different than
>> the rest of their country), or Limburg
>> and Lower Saxony (who see themselves as
>> deserving the same rights as Bavaria and
>> Friesland, since they are on the same
>> political level within their country)?
>>
>> I personally am not a big fan of the
>> organization of politics with the concept
>> of nations (I am a German, but I don't
>> quite understand why I should feel closer
>> to someone in Munich compared to someone
>> in Vienna, Berne, Luxembourg, Eupen,
>> Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague or
>> Wroclaw). But I accept that
>> this ambiguous concept is accepted by the
>> vast majority of other people, that
>> today's politics deal with this concept,
>> that it is important to a lot of people,
>> and that I won't be able to fundamentally
>> change it.
>>
>> I think one vote per country has worked
>> quite well for PPI. In order to
>> accomodate the situation in Spain I would
>> suggest someone whom it is important to
>> drafts an amendment of the PPI statutes
>> that allows regional parties in
>> exceptional circumstances to become
>> ordinary members (maybe with only half a
>> vote?) after the GA votes in favor of
>> admitting that party as an ordinary
>> member. (Maybe you could include
>> non-opposition by the 'affected' national
>> party, too). There is no guarantee that
>> such an amendment would pass, however.
>> This would then allow the members of PPI
>> to decide on a possible Kosovarian PP
>> when there is one, and not force them to
>> make such a decision now.
>>
>> The more fundamental question is
>> obviously whether there is a lot of use
>> in having this discussion at all. Is an
>> ordinary membership in PPI that important
>> to PP-CAT and PP-GAL, keeping PPI's tasks
>> and limitations in mind? Do PP-CAT and
>> PP-GAL really disagree with PPES so much
>> as far as PPI is concerned? Shouldn't
>> this discussion instead focus on how we
>> set up PPEU concerning national
>> minorities (or at all), or how PPES could
>> be reformed that it is not seen as such a
>> big problem for the members of PP-CAT and
>> PP-GAL?
>>
>> -J
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Kenneth
>> Peiruza <kenneth at pirata.cat
>> <mailto:kenneth at pirata.cat>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Isabel,
>>
>> It would be great to see some
>> Galician Pirates in the forthcoming
>> GA. Please think about it! There's
>> going to be 6 PP-ES delegates and 4
>> PP-CAT delegates there, so, we can
>> have a nice time with a lot of Pilsen
>> beer :)
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kenneth
>>
>>
>> On 04/03/12 10:59, Isabel Fernández
>> wrote:
>>> Hello Justus,
>>>
>>> We don't think PPI's job regulate between pirates parties either. That's
>>> why we said we'll declare nothing of the sort.
>>>
>>> Our suggestion was based on the premise 'one legal territorial pirate
>>> party - one vote' that we think it's a more fair than the actual
>>> situation. We think PPI could give it some thought to this issue.
>>>
>>> We'd love to send a delegate to the GA, but rumours are saing that we'll
>>> face elections next autumn at Galician Parlament and still there's a lot
>>> work to do... we're not sure we can attend to Prague. Generally rumours
>>> on this subject turn out to be true at the end. Maybe next time we are
>>> able to send Galician Delegation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>>
>>> Isabel Fernandez.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/03/12 10:51, Justus Römeth wrote:
>>>> Thank you Isabel (and the rest of PP-GAL),
>>>>
>>>> I don't think PPI's job is to regulate between individual pirate parties,
>>>> but rather to keep the movement growing, by providing infrastructure and a
>>>> place to meet for pirates who's country does not have a PP, and by helping
>>>> them through the early stages of forming a party. Therefore I don't think a
>>>> model that would give PPDE ~20 times as much voting power as the next
>>>> biggest party (PPSE is still not a member) would be appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> That is not to say that the current model of PPI concerning the situation
>>>> in Spain is optimal. It is not. I think your proposed solution would make
>>>> sense for something like PPEU, or a PPI with a much broadened scope (as
>>>> well as institutions like the EP, but that is a different matter). As of
>>>> yet I don't see the latter happening, however.
>>>>
>>>> Are you (PP-GAL) planning to send a delegate to the General assembly in
>>>> Prague?
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> Justus
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:09 AM, HerNenya <isabel.fdez at mundo-r.com> <mailto:isabel.fdez at mundo-r.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I do apologize since last message was my first mail to this list. I'm
>>>>> not used to deal w/ digests.
>>>>>
>>>>> I repeat the message for better reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards to all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Isabel Fernandez.
>>>>> -----------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a message made by the members of public relations team for
>>>>> PP-GAL. It is agreed by all the members of mentioned team and we want to
>>>>> send it through our link in this mailing list of PPI members so it must
>>>>> be understood in the name of PP-GAL party and not from the sender who
>>>>> forwards this message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since there were direct references to PP-GAL in this list and the way we
>>>>> organize ourselves in Spain, we consider it is important to be heard in
>>>>> our oppinion before of the rest of pirates parties of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all, we would like to say we are 2 months old as a political
>>>>> party in Spain and our foundation is based on the structure of Spain as
>>>>> a country formed by autonomies as such established in the Spanish
>>>>> Constitution Act [1] in article #148 in order to organize ourselves in
>>>>> the Spaniard territory. Moreover we have our own idiosyncrasy as
>>>>> language and culture quite different from other spaniard territories.
>>>>> Therefore we are an approved political party by the competent Ministry
>>>>> with same rights and duties as PP-ES and PP-CAT.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Kenneth from PP-CAT said in other previous message, we are
>>>>> encouraging a confederation at country level to organize common tasks
>>>>> that affect us as a nation such the cases of #megacomplaint and
>>>>> #opColapso (fighting against Sinde-Wert law [2]) that we are supporting
>>>>> PP-ES, PP-CAT and PP-GAL. Last week we have created a mailing list
>>>>> called pirata-34 to discuss those affairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the subject about who can vote as a country or by the amount
>>>>> of pirate members, we consider system of countries is not fair precisely
>>>>> because of proportion of the population densities and pirates members. A
>>>>> possible fair solution (as a suggestion) to this matter could be that
>>>>> depending on the number of members from each pirate party, each party
>>>>> will provide a proportional amount of the contingency fund of PPI, as
>>>>> well, each party would have the proportional weight in PPI decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Refering to mentions about how to organize internally the different
>>>>> pirate parties in Spain, we considered that this mailing list is not the
>>>>> appropiate place to discuss about it, so we are not going to declare
>>>>> anything here.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/IDIOMAS/9/Espana/LeyFundamental/index.htm
>>>>> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_Sinde
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Public Relations Team of PP-GAL.
>>>>> http://piratasdegalicia.org/web/
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Isabel Fdez
>>>>> GPG EA63DF8E
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International -
>> General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko
> Vocal de la Junta Directiva Nacional del Partido
> Pirata.
> Coordinador de Jóvenes Piratas en Madrid.
>
> "Libertad en lugar de miedo." - "Información
> libre, sociedad libre."
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko
> Vocal de la Junta Directiva Nacional del Partido Pirata.
> Coordinador de Jóvenes Piratas en Madrid.
>
> "Libertad en lugar de miedo." - "Información libre,
> sociedad libre."
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dario Castañé
> http://www.dario.im | http://twitter.com/im_dario
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>
> --
> Miguel García Lafuente - Rock Neurotiko
> Vocal de la Junta Directiva Nacional del Partido Pirata.
> Coordinador de Jóvenes Piratas en Madrid.
>
> "Libertad en lugar de miedo." - "Información libre, sociedad libre."
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> <mailto:pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
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> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
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