[pp.int.general] A Pirate Position on First past the post vs representative voting

[Marko Mitrovic]

Looks like that controvetsial topics get most attention on this list and
something potentially very important as this goes under the radar.

Don't quite understand what you mean by "changing position". Have Pirates
supported First Past The Post at some point in the past?

In last email I pointed out some positions that could be developed into
valid arguments on this issue:
-proportional system offers more political diversity;
-with proportional system it is much harder for two or three parties to
monopolize entire political scene;
-proportional system allows new fresh ideas to break through much easier;
-as a result of points above, proportional system is much more flexible and
offers better options of overcoming various crisis when old ways have to be
altered or abandoned, for example current world economy crisis or whole
IP/copyright/patent questions Pirates are asking.
As Pirates are by default supporters of diversity and fresh ideas and
natural opponents of any sort of monopolies, these arguments could slot in
our current ideas easily.

Some other possible arguments:
-proportional allows for social/ethnic minorities to be represented in
parliamemt;
-proportional system would probably be better suited for implementing some
principles of direct democracy;
-proportional system is not black&white. It offers more shades of gray when
making decisions by allowing more opinions to be heard;
-proportional system is more dynamic;
-proportional system allows much more colorful opposition in parilament;

I'm sure that someone else can come up with some more points that could be
shaped into valid arguments.

We would also need some arguments against First Past The Post system.

Sorry for typos, I'm writing from phone :)

On May 22, 2012 4:42 PM, "Justus Römeth" <squig at dfpx.de> wrote:
>
> Again, In order to stay believable we really need to show that we do not
promote it because it (also) is in our interest, but because we genuinely
think it is better. I do not disagree with your position here (even though
there are failsafes like election treshholds and a direct and a list vote
for the voters that migitate some of the problems you listed), I just think
that we need to be very conscious on how we comunicate our position to the
voter, and how we make sure that we do not change our position just because
it suits our movement better (because that is exactly the kind of politics
we do not want to do).
>
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Marko Mitrovic <
marko.mitrovic at piratskapartija.com> wrote:
>>
>> *are smaller than
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Marko Mitrovic <
marko.mitrovic at piratskapartija.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, of course. I only pointed out that it is in our best interest
anyway, on top of the fact that system is simply better(in my opinion at
least).
>>>
>>> Living in a country where proportional system is in place since fall of
communists, it is only natural to me. There are some downsides like small
parties with only goal to get few seats here and there that are only
wasting space or relative danger of letting extremist parties in
parliament, like Golden Dawn in Greece. Also, elected representatives in
practice don't owe loyalty to voters but to their parties.
>>>
>>> However, all those possible downsides are smaller that biggest flaw of
first past the post and similar systems - creation of
bipartisan/tripartisan political scene.
>>>
>>> It might be hard to win bigger parties over as it is clearly in their
political interest for system to remain the same and flaws proportional
system can be easily found in their eyes.
>>>
>>> I think we should be aiming at diversity and ability for new fresh
ideas to break through that proportional system offers. It is also far more
dynamic.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Justus Römeth <squig at dfpx.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, of course I meant proportional, sorry about that.
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, I thought we wanted to do what is good for our
societies, and develop our policies from there. If we only wanted to do
what is best for us (personally or our party) we would want to gain 50% of
the vote and then introduce FPTP everywhere, to promote stability and our
world-view. I think if we genuinely want to argue that a proportional
system is better we need to develop positions as to why it is better,
hopefully with arguments that are theoretically strong enough to even win
some people within the bigger parties over (as it is their current
supporters we need to win over in order to really have an impact). That was
the direction I was trying to aim with my Email.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Marko Mitrovic <
marko.mitrovic at piratskapartija.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> By representative you mean proportional system, right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, from political point of view it is only logical that we favor
proportional system as we are new emerging party and would find very hard
to break into first past the post system any time soon. Proportional system
is also more democratic as it makes possible for smaller parties to be
represented in parliament. And proportional system would make it easier to
shift to some more direct-democracy-ish system in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Justus Römeth <roemeth at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moin Pirates
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James O'Keefe, Captain of the Pirate Party of Massachusetts, stated
in his interview with Etopia news that he thinks that representative voting
systems are something he as a Pirate would like to also see in the US. Is
that something that is mirrored by other parties with similar political
systems, like PPFR, PPUK or PPES? And if it is, is there a way we can
develop and formulate a coherent position that could become part of future
Pirate Party political statements? Do you think a statement on this
position is desireable?
>>>>>> If it is, how do we make sure that a) there really is a change on
this once we have electoral success (and not fail like the LibDems in the
UK), and b) how can we reach out to other parties that share this position
(like the Green parties in the UK, US and France)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> kind regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Justus Römeth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
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