[pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference Kazan 2013

[kenneth at pirata.cat]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:17:19 +0000, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> After the infamous letter you posted lately, I must say I admire your
> ignorant guts :) .
> 
> 
> Antonio.
> 



This is ANOTHER formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.


>> Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:13:51 +0200
>> From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>> To: ningunotro at hotmail.com
>> CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
>> Conference	Kazan 2013
>> 
>> Antonio, points are points, insults are insults. You simply keep on
>> insulting anyone not supporting your desires.
>> 
>> 
>> Is insulting people an acceptable behaviour in this mailing list?
>> 
>> This is a formal complaint about Antonio's behaviour.
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Kenneth
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:51:10 +0000, Antonio Garcia
>> <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Your wishful thinking is pathetic.
>> > 
>> > I do not need to be a delegate to Kazan for the Spanish Pirate Party
to
>> > have inalienable rights. I have these on my own as a human being, and
>> > as
>> an
>> > equal among pirates.
>> > 
>> > By their own Rules of Procedure, provisional as they might be but
>> > deemed
>> > temporarily enforceable unless a General Assembly ruled otherwise
>> (which,
>> > thanks to the terrible efficiency of General Assemblies has not
>> > happened
>> > yet :) )... anonymous complaints are acceptable in matters regarding
>> > infringement of PPI Statutes.
>> > 
>> > What happened at the PPI GA in Prague and showed up in several CoA
>> rulings
>> > qualifies largely as such.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > So, no matter how cleverly you or anybody else thought he was
>> scheming...
>> > you are fucked assholes.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > And PPI and PPI Board are walking on eggs in this...
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Antonio.
>> > 
>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:23 +0200
>> > Subject: RE: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
>> > Conference	Kazan	2013
>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > All your logic goes linked to your personal wishes, not to rules or
>> > statutes.
>> > Current PPI statutes don't accept personal/annonymous complaints, so
>> stop
>> > crying and at least get recognized as the official delegate of your
>> party
>> > before complaining/crying/begging any longer.
>> > So far, for what I know, your fellow party members don't want you to
>> > represent them at all.
>> > Go fix that or shout up :)
>> > Be really logic, my friend. Don't just say you are .
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Salut! 
>> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
>> > You have a weird sense of logic and ethic, my "friend".
>> > 
>> > I do not need to propose anything. This is pending matter since it
was
>> > duly introduced as an anonymous complaint to the Court of
Arbitration.
>> > 
>> > And it gets absolute priority at the PPI General Assembly because the
>> > GA
>> > is the supreme body of appeal when the CoA fails to deliver, and
>> > because
>> > its outcome impacts on voting rights at the same General Assembly.
>> > 
>> > Vote outcomes could be different if the vote of the Catalan Pirate
>> > Party
>> > are deemed valid... so solving this issue comes first.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > And not doing it in such a way raises that many LOGICAL and ETHICAL
>> > questions within PPI...
>> > 
>> > ... that a FORK to the whole movement that provides a safe harbour
for
>> > logically and ethically consistent Pirates... is not to e ruled out
if
>> PPI
>> > utterly fails in this.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Either way... you are done.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Antonio.
>> > 
>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:18:47 +0200
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International
>> > Conference	Kazan	2013
>> > From: kenneth at pirata.cat
>> > To: ningunotro at hotmail.com;
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > To propose anything... You need to do it through your officiap
>> > representatives.
>> > The members of PPI are its parties, not its party members, and so far
>> you
>> > haven't been appointed as PP-ES delegate.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Salut! 
>> > Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> escribió:
>> > It's a bit late to try to get a quorum lowering participation costs
for
>> > remotely represented members to zero or almost zero.
>> > 
>> > Holding the GA in Kazan has been a strategical move only to benefit
>> > Gregory's position since the very beginning of it.
>> > 
>> > Remember, PP of Russia is not even registered yet.
>> > 
>> > Remember,  there was such an interest in organizing this in Russia...
>> that
>> > there were two concurrent bids from there.
>> > 
>> > Remember, the meetings where the outcome of the selection process was
>> > crafted... were densely populated with participants.
>> > 
>> > Remember, there is maybe still another meeting scheduled for Kiev...
>> > theoretically stealth approved through "administrative silence"...
from
>> > Gregory?
>> > 
>> > Remember, the russian bids were so consistent... the venue for Kazan
is
>> > not the originally offered venue anymore.
>> > 
>> > Remember, the Kazan offer is headed towards being the most expensive
in
>> > the history of the pirate movement... only affordable for local
>> > russians
>> > and the international pirate dandies with unlimited travel budgets.
>> > 
>> > And certainly, it will be a place where Gregory will easily find
straw
>> men
>> > to hold his many delegation representations. How many this time,
>> Gregory?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Surely, he aims for reelection, and he is bureaucratically working
with
>> > his elbows towards it to the best of his abilities... and 150.000
>> > rubles
>> of
>> > personal subsidies.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I am tired of all the bulshit stacked into the Pirate Movement in
such
>> > a
>> > short timeframe because of the lack of genuine leadership and vision
in
>> the
>> > Pirate Swarm.
>> > 
>> > It has become an IDIOCRACY some demagogues know far too well how to
>> > navigate with populism and mob rule.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > If Kazan does not put an end to the endless horrors against logic and
>> > ethic imposed onto the Pirate Movement in Prague (I witnessed that in
>> utter
>> > awe, do not know if it was more or less than in previous GAs)... then
>> the
>> > Pirate Movement is a walking Zombie.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > One single and simple test to begin with:
>> > 
>> > 1) The bogus admission of the Catalan Pirate Party as a full member
of
>> the
>> > PPI after a mere propaganda session, a blackmail to the Assembly, and
>> mob
>> > rule to impose a vote on a matter not being an ad-hoc competence of
the
>> > General Assembly, instrumentalizing a non-motion of the Australian
>> Pirate
>> > Party... and ignoring it did not even reach the required two-thirds
>> > majority.
>> > 
>> > The Statutes of PPI were blatantly ignored first, and consciously
>> violated
>> > in a sentence of the Court of Arbitration that will certainly be
>> > awarded
>> > the Nobel Prize for utter stupidity as soon as it is created.
>> > 
>> > I presented a very argumented and of unavoidable consequences
complaint
>> to
>> > the Court of Arbitration... anonymously, as I could not get the
backing
>> of
>> > a spineless Board of the Spanish Pirate Party,... carefully following
>> the
>> > published guidelines of the Rules of Procedure of the Court of
>> > Arbitration,... that had decided -without a hint of disapproval
>> anywhere-
>> > that it would accept anonymous complaints of anybody in case of
>> > infringement to the PPI Statutes.
>> > 
>> > There was only one way to stop the complaint of achieving its goal...
>> > render the CoA absolutely inoperative so that it could not resolve
into
>> a
>> > result it could not tamper with.
>> > 
>> > PP-CH threatened to SUE the PPI in court in such a clumsy way it
>> > offered
>> > Gregory an dreamed excuse to impose the resignation of the Court of
>> > Arbitration as a Salomonic (rather satanic) "solution" the Swiss
could
>> be
>> > happy with or show muscle... and they folded.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > As the voting rights of a bogus member are being contested... either
we
>> > solve this adequately on-line BEFORE the assembly (and then maybe
more
>> > members seeing some hope is still a push to get the needed remote
>> > participants on board)... or you will be fighting it out during the
two
>> > days, unable to tackle anything else (what a waste of money and time
>> > for
>> > all those present in Kazan), and sign the demise of a pirate movement
>> > already lacking credibility for any intelligent being.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Antonio García.
>> > (by some kind of weird disfunctional wonder... official member of the
>> > Board of the Spanish Pirate Party... while it lasts :( ). 
>> > 
>> > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 03:02:40 +0200
>> > From: jelena.the.one at gmail.com
>> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Pirate Parties International Conference
>> > Kazan	2013
>> > 
>> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on
>> this
>> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
good.
>> > 
>> > that's what I am doing, that's community management, not campaign and
>> > advertising :) thanx for having time to reply
>> > I really believe conference fees should be none for remote
>> > participants,
>> > since Kazan is that far and that expensive. Excuse e Gregory, but
fees
>> are
>> > 3 do 4 times higher then in Prague.
>> > 
>> >  
>> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Simon Frew
>> <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
>> > wrote:
>> > 
>> >>Jelena said:
>> > 
>> >>It was not a junket. it was good opportunity for networking. And
there 
>> > is less trolling and hate speech when you meet someone face 2 face. 
>> > 
>> > That's
>> >  good if you can afford it, none of our members seem to have the
spare 
>> > funds to travel to Russia for a two day meeting, and we can't afford
>> > to
>> > fund them out of our limited budget.
>> > 
>> > 
>> >>I think conference few should be much lower for remote participants.
Or
>> >>it should be no fee at all.
>> > 
>> > Those
>> >  of us attending as remote delegates cannot register to attend.
>> >  Leaving
>> > us to wonder, will there even be remote delegates this year? Will it
>> > be
>> > any better than previous years? 
>> > 
>> > I think I speak for many non-European 
>> > parties when I say we are looking for reassurance and evidence that
we 
>> > wont get screwed over and left out yet again. If this years GA is as
>> > farcical as the last two, the organisation will start to crumble.
>> > 
>> > 
>> >>PPI has no budget, and I as a board member didn't use any 
>> > money so far. Even for runnign FB campaign resources (maybe) could be

>> > given from PP DE. 
>> >>When I realized it I gave up making a project proposal
>> >  and going trough bureaucracy for little campaign 
>> >>(managing FB ads from 
>> > Serbia is cheaper than in other countries, ofc talking about price
per 
>> > click / per 1000 views) 
>> > 
>> > I think you can get campaigns off the ground through posting ideas on
>> this
>> > list and involving the various national Parties if the ideas are
good.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >>PPI board members, as far as I know, will go to 
>> > Kazan from their own money too. PPI has no budget even to send board
>> > to
>> > PPI conference. 
>> >>And I agree it is not cheap even when you are flying 
>> > from Europe, I calculated costs of flight ticket and hotel and it was

>> > cca 1.000 eur (~ 1.200 AU dollars), from the Balkans. 
>> > 
>> > Surely
>> >  remote participation would be more important than ever, yet despite 
>> > repeated efforts through multiple channels we cannot get a response 
>> > reassuring people who can't attend in person that they will be able
to 
>> > participate and that remote delegates will be taken seriously.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > What does the Board want the money for? How much does it want?
>> > 
>> > We are reluctant 
>> > to give money 
>> > to an organisation that we feel effectively excluded from, with no
>> > idea
>> > what it will do. The trust we have in the PPI, if you can't tell is 
>> > basically non-existant at the moment. The Co-Chair publicly attacking
>> > us
>> >  for not wanting to spend thousands of dollars to go to Russia
doesn't 
>> > exactly give us confidence any money that goes to PPI will be used 
>> > wisely.
>> > 
>> > Mab wrote:
>> > 
>> >>The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
for 
>> > our general assemblies. Over the years we have developed 
>> >>quite a few 
>> > fetures to make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are
>> > entirely
>> >  text based and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that 
>> >>people can attend 
>> > regardless of when they have the time to be online. Any single round
>> > of
>> > voting spans at least 24 hours to facilitate 
>> >>that everyone can vote.
>> > 
>> > This sounds like the exact sort of thing that is needed for PPI.
>> > 
>> > Regards
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Simon
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:18 AM,  <mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se>
>> > wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > The Swedish Pirate Party has since the start used a forum platform
for
>> our
>> > general assemblies. Over the years we have developed quite a few
>> > fetures
>> to
>> > make it more suitable for online assemlies. They are entirely text
>> > based
>> > and nowadays spans 6 weeks so that people can attend regardless of
when
>> > they have the time to be online. Any single round of voting spans at
>> least
>> > 24 hours to facilitate that everyone can vote.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I am pretty sure a similar model would work for PPI, which, given its
>> > delegate system, would have far less participants.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > If ppi where interested I am sure we could provide the technical
>> know-how
>> > of how to set up a web forum.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > All the best
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Mab
>> > 
>> > PP-SE
>> > 
>> > EU-branch
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 2013-04-02 10:41, Simon Frew wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > We just use cheap video streaming with an IRC channel where we verify
>> > 
>> > who can vote and give them voice. Everyone with a computer monitors
>> > 
>> > IRC so remote delegates get adequately represented. I think it costs
>> > 
>> > about $50 for the streaming, but if its entirely online a Mumble
>> > 
>> > server and a Pad would about do it. When we hired all of the gear it
>> > 
>> > cost a total of $150 or so, but we have members who can provide a lot
>> > 
>> > of infrastructure out of their own gear.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > It was suggested on #PPI IRC that one could be held on Google+, PP
>> > 
>> > California meet using it (or did when I attended a meeting once) and
>> > 
>> > it worked well. It means dealing with Google and subsequent privacy
>> > 
>> > implications but it has video and is free.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > If there wont be any remote participation in the GA we might as well
>> > 
>> > hold our own on Mumble. You guys could even have the honour of
hosting
>> > 
>> > the first one. Although PPAU has its own Mumble server too. Just
start
>> > 
>> > it later in your day time so I dont have to get up too early to
>> > 
>> > attend. ;)
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Regards
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Simon
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Aza <rata_0071 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 2013/4/1 Simon Frew <simon.frew at pirateparty.org.au>
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > We run remote participation for every congress in Australia and it
>> > costs
>> > virtually nothing. See our official complaint letter for how to do
it.
>> The
>> > idea it is expensive is false.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Hey Simon could the PPAU provide the infrastructure for a virtual GA?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > At the PPAR we have a mumble server that could be used if you dont
miss
>> > video.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > If we cant participate in the same one we may just as well have a
>> parallel
>> > virtual GA
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > regards
>> > 
>> > aza
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > President of the Intergalactic Pirate Party (IPP)
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > 
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > [1]
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Links:
>> > 
>> > ------
>> > 
>> > [1]
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > 
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > 
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ____________________________________________________
>> > 
>> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> > 
>> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> > 
>> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > --