[pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the pirate ideology?

[Martin Stolze]

@Zbigniew:
"We are a group selected for our attitude towards copyright, patents and
privacy reforms - now we see that we share more than that.  Why is that?
 What is the thing that links these subjects?"

We are just composed in a way that we invite other/new ideas, we have no
establishment (yet). Some ideas would just not have any fertile ground
elsewhere. Patens, and Copyright but also drug legalization and Basic
income are just unloved children.

@Antonio

Funny but your downsides are my upsides
-> I think increased spending is part of the upside
-> The supply-side will of course benefit greatly (so will equity!)
-> That this will be debt spending is pretty much a no brainer, but it
would be more efficient than trying to expand credit by quantitative easing
as done right now
-> As I pointed out previously "equality" will NOT be reinforced by it at
all! (UBI “technically provides the holder with a Life Annuity[...]” the
value of the discounted cash flow will not be equal for any 2
participants!!!)

Other than that, I agree with your rant in so far as that many people may
not understand entirely what unconditional basic income really means for
them.

@Zbigniew
"Unconditional Basic Income can come in many variants [...]" - it can
obviously only come in one variant UNCONDITIONAL :)

@ Jack
+1 well done :)
Except: cost of UBI "is a function of population" ! good point! But not to
forget: Health! and its derivative Life expectancy!

@Dario
"Which Pirate parties included the idea of a "basic income" in the core of
its ideology and/or their electoral program? And which specific model of
"basic income" was that?"
-> The Berlin Pirates run with it in the last elections

@John
"Henry George and geo-libertarians focus on land, and land value rent, but
I'm not sure it has to end there. In my mind any transfer from the commons
to the private (i.e. copyright, patents, emission quotas and so forth) if
to be viewed as ethical at all needs to be compensated in a similar way."

Thanks, really interesting point elevating it all on a different level.
More details on this?

-> I stumbled upon this recently, maybe this is of interest to you, I know
it's dangerous and maneuvering to another extreme but anyway ...

“I do not have property rights that extend so far that they allow me to
withhold essential goods that I do not need from those who will suffer and
die without them.”
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2013/03/11/nicole-hassoun/authority-not-only-problem-people-have-positive-well-negative-rights


@Carlo
"It is however in the genes of humanity to have an opinion way before
having a clue" - well put :)

@RMS
You make the point that it is a matter of redistribution preferably due to
taxation. - I can't argue with that. But Economists would point out that
taxation of income kills incentives and expropriation of assets conflict
with the very foundation of our society: Property rights. You would have at
least to acknowledge that we would gradually pay a higher price, namely:
curbed progress.

I think that it is also important to state that the same policy may have
completely different outcomes at two places. What may succeed in Iceland
can be a completely devastating in Ivory Coast.


On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>wrote:

> Only resorting to protectionism if not done by all countries at the same
> time, evicting radically from their marketplace any company that does not
> comply.
>
> I dare suggest the mere impossibility of such a scheme is what finally
> brought down the Berlin wall.
>
> It takes a far more conscious civic movement to impose this kind of
> protectionism as a de facto reality rather than a political imposition.
> When dodging taxes translates automatically into brutally losing sales to
> aware citizens.
>
> Like when Microsoft collaborating with the NSA translates automagically
> into sufficient people switching over to Linux on their existing machines,
> and refusing to buy any new computer with Windows preinstalled.
>
>
> Antonio.
>
> > Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 07:46:08 -0400
> > From: rms at gnu.org
> > To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > CC: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the
> pirate ideology?
>
> >
> > [ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider
> > [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,
> > [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.
> >
> > Small sarcastic footnote, Switserland is a country that has the funds to
> > do this.
> >
> > Any developed country can have the funds for a basic income
> > (or whatever else is needed) if it stops businesses and the rich
> > from tax-dodging.
> >
> > --
> > Dr Richard Stallman
> > President, Free Software Foundation
> > 51 Franklin St
> > Boston MA 02110
> > USA
> > www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
> > Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
> > Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> > pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> > http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
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