[pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the pirate ideology?
john.nilsson at piratpartiet.se
Thu Jul 18 12:15:04 CEST 2013
Ah, and to address your points directly.
I guess 'we' in the general sense has the right to do anything with our
world. But that does not extend to any individual having the right to do it
against the wishes of the others.
I don't agree that existence necessitates destruction, if allowing a
difference between "destruction" and "change" without going deeper into how
to define the terms than the first being a negative thing for most of us
and the second might be a negative thing for a few.
As for degree permissible I believe it is the subject for the contract
between the commoners and the private owner. In practice I think it should
resemble free market valuation, in that the highest bidder determines the
most valuable use of a resource, and is then obliged to compensate the
commons with that amount. Whether to go full laissez faire or have a
municipality as proxy for the commons is less important in my mind, and is
what should differentiate left from right on this issue.
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 11:33 AM, John Nilsson <john at milsson.nu> wrote:
> I guess you can arrive at it from different angles. My take is that of
> coexistance, I take it as axiomatic that we all benefit from seeking
> non-violent resolutions to any conflict. As such we have a responsibility
> to reason with eachother to avoid such conflict. Seeing how any action
> might be in conflict with other peoples interests we can't assume any
> resource to be unowned or free to exploit. Instead we should assume that
> everyone has an equaly legitimate claim to it. Thus I suggest that having
> no other agreement in place everything belongs to the commons.
> Skickat från min iPhone
> 18 jul 2013 kl. 10:27 skrev Martin Stolze <pirate.martin at stolze.cc>:
> I agree with your sentiment that there should be some very profound
> ethical foundation but I must admit that I can’t fully comprehend what that
> could be.
> I understand the economics and can see fallacies in that argumentation,
> particularly the common mistake of complete ignorance of the time value of
> But as for the ethical debate I can only contribute simple logic and
> educated guessing which is why I was hoping you would come up with some
> "simple ethical foundations" :D.
> The complexity become obvious if you just scratch on the surface:
> You say: *“we shouldn't call it taxation as that implies that there is a
> right to destroy our environment in the first place.”*
> We have the ability to shape our environment and so we do. Full stop. That
> logic implies in fact a right to destroy (change). Here we maneuver into
> the question as to how we value ourselves.
> If we underline the logic of the Basic Income as “I am worthwhile because
> I exist, I am I, and I am alive” then our very existence necessitates and
> justifies the destruction of the environment. The only thing we could argue
> about is the degree. Who decides? From here on we would have to "measure"
> ... and I don’t even wanna get started with that. How would a tax/transfer
> do justice?
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 5:17 AM, John Nilsson <john at milsson.nu> wrote:
>> Den 17 jul 2013 16:35 skrev "Martin Stolze" <pirate.martin at stolze.cc>:
>> > @John
>> > "Henry George and geo-libertarians focus on land, and land value rent,
>> but I'm not sure it has to end there. In my mind any transfer from the
>> commons to the private (i.e. copyright, patents, emission quotas and so
>> forth) if to be viewed as ethical at all needs to be compensated in a
>> similar way."
>> > Thanks, really interesting point elevating it all on a different level.
>> More details on this?
>> Hmm. Not sure. I think is is the first time I've been able to articulate
>> it so clearly to my self. Which could be indicative of being more of a
>> sound bite than actual insight ;)
>> Maybe one could keep it in mind while reading Benklers Wealth of Networks
>> for some new insights?
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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