[pp.int.general] Moderated PPI discussion list

Sun Jun 16 15:02:12 CEST 2013

Dear Anouk,

I always found your points of view very interesting, especially in our 
conversations at the European Pirates congress in Barcelona last year. I 
found you a very democratic pirate. Though I don't always agree with you 
on your perspectives respecting how to accomplish things, I usually get 
where you want to go.

I like too Sun Tzu's /'The Art of War'/ and recomended to different 
people several times... but I don't think it does apply here in this case.

I don't think it's a matter of shyness, or being timid, or not knowing 
our own strenghts. I think it's a matter of wasting time and energy with 
things that most of the time are not helping at all to focus on our goal 
which is _how to get closer to people_ (outside the pirate movement) and 
try to cover their needs with our ideology.

People are not getting our message, our vision, mainly because these 
internal fights distract us from listen to them and act accordingly. We 
pirates need some fresh air to work united in a proactive way.

My presence here has became (sadly) just to support our fellow pirates 
from Catalonia and our project of Confederation in Spain from time to 
time. To make people understand Catalans are not alone and we are not 
their puppets - as many times it's being suggested - but strong 
co-workers, even friends in a certain way.

In Galicia we have decided not so long time ago that we are going to 
share our work through Pirate Times and specific projects (regarding 
PPI) while this agressive environment is not surpassed. And I'd like to 
remark it is not always a few spanish individuals who foul the 
environment. It is very difficult to work fast and efficient like this, 
especially for small groups as us.

I agree completely with Muriel's suggestions. Leave this ML like it is 
and create a new one with rules and nettiquete previously settled to 
prevent this situation to ever happen again.

Best regards,

Isabel Fernandez
GPG EA63DF8E
www.piratasdegalicia.org

El 16/06/13 11:06, Anouk escribió:
> in-line answered.
>
> On 16 June 2013 00:47, Muriel Rovira Esteva <muriel at pirata.cat 
> <mailto:muriel at pirata.cat>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Anouk,
>
>     This list is for pirates. It's not the outer world nor the
>     corridors of a Parliament. It should be a friendly environment.
>     This is our discussion space, where we should be welcoming,
>     motivating and encouraging newly arrived pirates. Shy and
>     intimidated people may have very good ideas or insights that the
>     whole movement can benefit from.
>
>
> Hence I asked, but a little footnote, even being very shy or timid, if 
> one never speaks out, you (in general) got a (common) personality 
> problem to deal with.
>
>
>     We do not need every single pirate helping us to change society or
>     working for our cause to be at the front line shouting and
>     speaking out loud, fighting within a harsh environment of old
>     school politicians. Everyone has its place. Successful teamwork
>     means that every individual should be fulfilling different and
>     complementary tasks.
>
>
> Precisely, 'we' are still trying to arrive at this working 
> model/principle. So assuming that 'we' are already at this state is a 
> fallacy (which is actually the core problem! Hence the returning 
> kindergarten remark).
>
>
>     If we select only one kind of personality traits, and we only
>     encourage a kind of person to get in our team (call it enduring or
>     whatever), we're very likely to loose a great deal of our
>     potential and the insights that you get when you talk to people
>     that are very different from you... I don't know, perhaps they
>     would be able to tell, for instance, why is the movement not as
>     successful sometimes as you would like it to be.
>
>
> You gave yourself the answer just before :) TEAMWORK, we all have 
> different talents learn to use them instead of trying to be this  
> omnipotent 'superpirate'. And YES we do need people at the political 
> front that can endure foul attacks !!!
>
>
>     Additionally, I do not see as our duty (nor understand this
>     obsession) with toughening up people who may temptatively come
>     here to see what the pirates are about, and which may be willing
>     to volunteer part of their time to the project, if the thing is
>     appealing enough to them. Last time I checked this wasn't the
>     mailing list of a military camp.
>
>
> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu
> *It is said that if you know <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Knowledge> 
> your enemies <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Enemies> and know yourself, 
> you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know 
> your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if 
> you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in 
> every single battle.
>
> *
> Life itself is a war until we abandon the notion of peace and war ! 
> Hide and duck is a very bad advise from the fifties to protect 
> yourself from a nuclear attack. If an attack is imminent, don't go in 
> denial because you will suffer the consequences.
>
> Is the Pirate Party not the result of a foul attack at pirate bay ? 
> Are pirates at peace with this ? I do not think so.
>
>
>     I also think that we're plural (good thing!), and understand that
>     some very valuable people with good ideas will not know how to
>     express their thoughts in a different way (call it soft or
>     respectful). And because I don't want to miss their insights
>     either, that is why I think an unmoderated list should be
>     mantained as well.
>
>
> Why does anyone shy would like to expose him/herself to an 
> international scene ? This is a/contradictio in terminis/.
> These pirates can function perfectly at a local level.
>
>  I am agreeing that a 'safe' mail list could help but frankly I doubt it.
>
>
>     Why should we limit ourselves to one way or the other? Don't you
>     think that the more ways we have to communicate the better?
>
>     Why do some care so much that other people talk among themselves
>     with a set of rules, if they please to do so? Isn't forcing this
>     no-rules rule on them a way of limiting their expression?
>
>     Best regards,
>
>                  Muriel
>
>
> You are a good person, thanks for your feedback. Know your friends.
>
>
>
>
>     2013/6/15 Anouk <jakobsheep at gmail.com <mailto:jakobsheep at gmail.com>>
>
>         Hi Muriel and others,
>         I like to point out that /anyone/ feeling intimidated
>         should/must speak out loud. For how do we know that this is
>         happening ?
>
>         Secondly, how does one survive at the real political scene ?
>         If we can't deal with straigth forward problems as Antonio has
>         argumented, what chance do the pirates have in public functions ?
>         I still see his arguments on the table not being handled well.
>         Kindergarten is unfortunately an good metaphore, and I like to
>         add, without supervision. (although I like to point out that I
>         also do see progress). Unfortunately sometimes things have to
>         go worse before things improve. (It is called, everybody has
>         to reinvent that same wheel)
>         This is my opinion and I do not experience the discussions as
>         intolerable, au contraire. I get more and more  insights in
>         the persons that shout and curse. This is how they profile
>         themselves, then that is how they are. The truth (with humans)
>         is more often ugly then beautiful, unfortunately. Deal with it
>         rather then keeping it at a distance.
>
>         Anouk
>
>         On Jun 15, 2013 11:03 PM, "Muriel Rovira Esteva"
>         <muriel at pirata.cat <mailto:muriel at pirata.cat>> wrote:
>
>             Hello,
>
>             I fail to see how leaving this list as it is, and open a
>             new one for people who likes to discuss differently is
>             censoring anyone in any way.  :)
>
>             In any case, it would be all the contrary, it would give
>             the oportunity to all those who may feel a bit intimidated
>             here to say something to speak their mind and participate.
>
>             Best regards,
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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