[pp.int.general] Antonio - do you want to work with us in organizing this movement?

Fri Jun 6 07:40:47 CEST 2014

OK Antonio - so there were some mistakes made.

What do you propose now? Nullifying Catalonia admittance would nullify
three subsequent GA where they took part and this is something I don't
think many members would agree. All that you describe is not a big
thing - it is just a formality - because the general will is to have
Catalonia as a member. Disrupting the whole organization to fix that
minor formality failure does not make sense.

So I'll repeat - how about a resolution that admits that there were
some mistakes made - but that we don't want to change the current
state of the organization. A lawyer should be able to formulate this
in a formal way. Then we'd vote on this resolution at the next GA and
I am pretty sure that it would pass - but maybe not who knows.

Would that satisfy you?
Z.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:26 AM, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Muriel,
> Dear Thomas,
>
> "We submitted a request to change our membership and also proposed several
> alternative statutes changes, both."
>
>
> Of course, I may have no clue about whatever communication was exchanged
> between Pirates de Catalunya and the Board of PPI. I have to be reliant on
> receiving the correct information through the established channels as far as
> the organization of the PPI General Assembly goes. To decide on memberships,
> the PPI has a procedure with double deadlines... 4 weeks prior to the GA for
> the parties to request anything that has to be voted upon by all, AND 2
> weeks prior to the GA for the PPI board to forward those requests to all
> member parties to allow them to make up their mind about what their vote
> should be.
>
> Two weeks prior to the PPI GA, NOTHING was communicated to any member party
> concerning any intention at all from the Catalan Pirate Party to apply for a
> status changement. Not only that, neither did I hear about any complaint by
> Pirates de Catalunya for having eventually been forgotten erroneously in the
> communication by the PPI board that mentioned all the others. If any error
> was comitted... those that had an interest in having it corrected, be it the
> Board when made aware of it, be it  the party unjustly hindered in its
> aims... should have SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT as soon as possible.
>
> Instead of that... Pirates de Catalunya did not even follow the usual
> procedure joining the other candidate parties and presenting itself at the
> proper moment in the GA.
>
> In fact, they did NOTHING a candidate should have done, and did not complain
> about not doing nothing. To be precise... they started BLACKMAILING only
> after it became clear that the statutes amendments they NEEDED IMPERATIVELY
> to be passed to be able to be a SECOND FULL MEMBER of the PPI from one
> single state... were NOT to be discussed and voted upon because of lack of
> time.
>
> You can dig up now ANY epistolar exchange you want between Pirates de
> Catalunya and the Board of PPI... without those amendments being accepted
> they do not mean a thing.
>
> Pirates de Catalunya KNEW it could NOT apply for full membership at the 2012
> PPI GA because membership matters are discussed with the OLD statutes being
> upheld, NEVER when the accepted amendments come into force. That is why they
> did not apply. They settled for a two year approach, 2012 statutes
> amendments, 2013 full member, ... 2014 European Elections as full member,
> with the backing of their bastard Pirate Confederation.
>
> It was ONLY when they were made aware that they were going to MISS the goal
> for the first year... and risked NOT to complete the full process in time to
> be useful for their bid for the european elections... that they really got
> pissed off and resorted to PLAIN BLACKMAIL, loosing ANY respect for the
> General Assembly.
>
> But at that moment... NONE of the possible alternatives had any chance...
> and they went for the impossible.
>
> Sadly, no statutes amendments... no chance for more than 1 full member per
> country.
> Sadly, no official candidate... no power to the General Assembly to assign
> them any status at all.
>
> There was NO motion to vote upon, only a misinterpretation of a request for
> clarification by the australian remote delegation that had trouble following
> the improvised issue through the wires.
>
> And I let things be so that the PPI GA of 2012 in Prague could end without a
> SCANDAL that would hurt the possibilities of our German Brethren in two
> nearby regional elections, because ANY competent Court of Arbitration would
> have nullified those fraudulent results without much thinking needing to be
> done.
>
> Needless to say that I am VERY pissed off about the way those German
> Brethren have been expressing their gratitude afterwards.
>
>
> Needless to say that I am VERY pissed off about the way the Court of
> Arbitration choose to show off their utter incompetence with ruling 2012-3.
>
> And after that just too many stupidities have been stacked on top of this by
> way too many purported Pirates.
>
> It is DAMN CLEAR to ANYONE with a few functioning braincells left that I am
> the ONLY ONE to have remained LOGICALLY and ETHICALLY coherent throughout
> the whole of this issue.
>
> Too many "Brethren" just plainly STINK.
>
> And the WHOLE MOVEMENT will stink as long as it does not set the record
> straight.
>
> The whole press has this issue in their records... and if you do not solve
> it... the moment their preferred strategy changes from silencing your
> existence to stacking dirt on you... they won't even have to produce it
> themselves... you have gently served them everything necessary.
>
> It's plain SUICIDE to ignore this issue and it's sequels.
>
>
> But, hey... it's YOUR CHOICE. If you want to be stupid at all costs... go
> for it.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: muriel at pirata.cat
> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 21:53:25 +0200
>
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Antonio - do you want to work with us in
> organizing this movement?
>
> Dear Betiel,
>
> I agree with with you that the CoA doings and undoings concern us all.
> However, I don't think this is really the issue here. This matter has been
> already thoroughly discussed in the past years several times in this same
> list. I think the problem starts when you realise that it's not a
> discussion, but just a monologue. Then most people trying to explain their
> point of view gets tired of a discussion that they feel useless, and simply
> stop arguing.
>
> The claim that the submission of Pirates de Catalunya was filled late, is
> completely false. Otherwise, the board wouldn't have accepted it... (and I
> must add) obviously.  :P
>
> We submitted a request to change our membership and also proposed several
> alternative statutes changes, both. We thought that the statutes were
> insensitive to the different realities on how pirates want to (or can)
> organise in each state and thought (think) that every pirate community
> should be free to organise as they feel it's more efficient (or as their law
> allows them to). It was not only about us and the complex reality in Spanish
> politics or how we want to organise, there are countries where it is very
> difficult to fund a statewide party unless you have first parties in each
> region, which makes it virtually impossible for pirates in those countries
> to join the PPI as full members, regardless of how active and successful
> they are. We wanted to change the statutes to allow more flexibility for
> everyone, not only for us.
>
> It was possible to send the membership submission by email to the board or
> to fill the wiki directly, and we did the first on the 16th of March of 2012
> at 13.41 h, within the standard deadline. During the GA we realised that we
> were not called at any point to present our party in front of the assembly
> for the voting (although we were doubtful whether they were counting on us
> to present or not, because we were already a member, so it was only a
> membership change). When we realised that they were not counting on us, we
> note it to the board, they realised their mistake and fixed it immediately.
>
> I will gladly answer in private any questions you might have.
>
> Greetings,
>
>          Muriel
>
>
>
> 2014-06-05 20:19 GMT+02:00 Betiel <betielix at gmail.com>:
>
> I totally disagree.
> If the court of arbitration was not working properly, it concerns all of us.
> Therefore is not a matter for a private conversation.
>
> Betiel
>
>
> 2014-06-05 14:06 GMT-03:00 Andrianos Pappas <adrian.ppgr at gmail.com>:
>
> Wtf, this is all stuff for personal correspondence and talks, not for
> international lists.
> So if you could all just stfu, and focus on real life things, such as
> #resetthenet, it'd be awesome.
>
> On June 5, 2014 7:53:03 PM EEST, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 18:36:18 +0200
>> From: zzbbyy at gmail.com
>> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Antonio - do you want to work with us in
>> organizing this movement?
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:44 PM, Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Jesus, can I talk to someone competent?
>> >
>> > Do I really have to spell everything out not to waste six months
>> > explaining
>> > the obvious?
>> >
>> > Can I take obvious things for obvious, or am I still talking in
>> > KinderGarten?
>>
>> I can see you are very frustrated - but I don't quite understand what
>> you are referring to - sorry.
>>
>> Are you disagreeing with me - or with someone else in this thread?
>>
>> >
>> > I meant the FIRST ruling of the CoA ABOUT Pirates d e Catalunya full
>
>> > membership, which is the subject WE were talking about. Not the first
>> > ever
>> > ruling of that particular class of Court of Arbitration.
>> >
>>
>> OK - I was also talking about this case - so I guess that burst of
>> frustration was about something else.
>
> No, you weren't, damnit...
>
> "Right - the Court of Arbitration ruling was wrong.
>
>
> But in fact the CoA could not rule that the very GA that elected them
>
>
>
> is invalid. The only ruling it could logically do is to rule that this
> is outside of its competence. And the current one also cannot nullify
> the chain of events that lead to its election - because it would also
>
>
> make itself invalid and thus also the very decision."
>
>
>
> That was about the supposition that the CoA can not rule as invalid the
> occasion at which it has been elected because then it would rule itself
> invalid. A very
> simplistic line of thought in itself that has however
> nothing to do with the ruling about the catalans.
>
> Be more accurate, more inteligent, more competent. Or let somebody with
> more cualifications handle this.
>
>
>
>
> There is too much really basic stuff you do not seem to understand or
> even pay attention to. You are not being a good ambassador for the
> Pirate cause.
>
>
>
>> > Thay one Court of Arbitration has proven to be absolutely incompetent,
>> > all
>> > the way, in even the most trivial of rulings.
>> >
>> > By the way, the spokesperson for the actual one is not showing much
>> > aptitude
>> > either, reading his comments:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://samedokan.wordpress.com/2014/05/10/when-pirates-do-prefer-censorship/
>> >
>> > And I am still kept waiting. Luckily, I reduced possible damage to a
>> > minimum
>> > as only Julia Reda got a seat in the European Parliament... results
>> > could
>> > have been far better if I had worked towards good results rather than
>> > against because nobody left me better options.
>>
>> So you admit that you are working against pirate parties political
>> success?
>
> You are a very bad craftsman trying to get a confession for the #Pirate
> #Inquisition :(.
>
> I have already said what I have said, and done what I have done.
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Z.
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
> ________________________________
>
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> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>
>
>
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________ Pirate Parties
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-- 
Zbigniew Lukasiak
http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/