[pp.int.general] Invitation PPI Conference Paris 12th/13th of April

Andrew Norton ktetch at gmail.com
Sat Mar 29 01:21:45 CET 2014

Hash: SHA1

Nuno, you're just not getting it.
If we have to go and find it, on some area other than THE most outward
facing page of a website, it's hardly an announcement. it's more an ad
banner, or a reminder.

for those that don't read the 'leaders list' btw, let me post said
message for them
Dear Members!

First of all I like to say thank you for participating in either
presenting the venues and the work behind it and for your votes.

10 member parties gave their votes.

Here are the results:

1 votes - Warszawa (Warsaw), Rzeczpospolita Polska (Republic of Poland)
7 votes - Paris, République française (French Republic)
2 votes - İstanbul (Istanbul), Türkiye Cumhuriyeti (Republic of Turkey)
0 votes - none of the above

So I am happy to announce we will meet in Paris for the General Assembly
in 2014.

All the necessary details will follow in due time.

Kind regards

Thomas Gaul

As you can see, a nice clear announcement of exactly where and when the
event is. Were we supposed to GUESS when it was, or where, in a metro
area that covers 17,000 square km.

There have been no subsequent posts on this topic prior to this week.

Again, I hadn't realised that the public posting of things was such a
hard task. Your saying that despite it being specifically stated in the
statutes that you are to make ANNOUNCEMENTS of a meeting of a general
assembly, trying to pass of 'we've announced the city that we're going
to plan it at' isn't the same thing at all.

It is not our job to keep tabs on pages in case the board decides to
update them. We are supposed to be practising transparency, good
governance, effective practices.
Saying 'well, there was some stuff on a wiki page, didn't you see it?'
is none of that.

Already pirates from over half a dozen countries have pointed out you're
in the wrong (everyone that's commented except the board members and the
event organiser in fact)

That you (meaning the board, collectively) seem not just unwilling, but
completely unable to take responsibility and own up to your
mistakes/oversights/misinterpritations says all kinds of bad things
about you.

Every last conference public notice of times, dates and places has been
given through active/push channels. Likewise 'think twice' managed it too.

It has been an established pattern, and an activity that has had a very
low requirement. I had not realized that the board as a whole would find
sending out an email roughly two months before, stating everything is
finalized, is such a difficult task, that it was impossible for you to
perform. And if the board is unable to perform the tasks spelled out in
detail, do we as a whole need to be worried about more complex tasks
that are not so clearly specified?

And since you've brought the leaders list in to it, and claiming they've
been notified (they haven't - I'm on the list Nuno...) I've included
them on it, so that anyone who is not longer on the PPI-general list is
aware that there is currently a large backlash about the 2-week
announcement, with the general consensus that a wiki page with no
explicit announcement that things are sorted is not an announcement as
required by the statutes.


On 3/28/2014 7:35 PM, Nuno Cardoso wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:14 PM, Andrianos Pappas <adrian.ppgr at gmail.com
> <mailto:adrian.ppgr at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     If you count that as an announcement, it was saying "5 and 6 of
>     April" until December. So one could claim that the announced dates
>     were those.
> The actual "announcement" was first made on the PP-Leaders mailing list
> <http://lists.pp-international.net/private/pp-leaders/2013-August/000490.html> (where
> member representatives are registered) without specific dates, and then
> details and updates follow in due time on the official wiki page which
> they can subscribe/watch for changes and be notified automatically.
> Anyone interested in the GA or on any info at all related with the PPI
> visiting the wiki in the last half a year would be presented with the
> sitenotice at the top of every page of the wiki, which on its last
> revision, as of 26th of September of 2013, actually half a year and 2
> days ago, announces that "The next PPI Conference is in Paris, April
> 12th & 13th 2014"
> <http://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=361336>
>     http://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=PPI_Conference_2014&oldid=361313
>     Anyhow, just a wiki page cannot, in most cases, be considered an
>     announcement, at least as far as I am concerned.
> Every wiki page has that announcement on the top, it is the official
> wiki of the official site of the PPI. It is the place where you are
> supposed to find the information of everything that relates to the PPI
> <http://wiki.pp-international.net/Main_Page>, it is not "just a wiki
> page" and it is much more accessible and visible than digging through
> the private archive of a mailing list which you must at least be a
> member of to even dig if you where not one at the time the announcement
> was sent. Also, considering that I asked, no..."announced a request" for
> official member contacts 3 weeks ago and only got contacts from 15 out
> of 42 Ordinary Members and 1 out of 12 Observer Members (that's 16 out
> of 54 total members, not even a third), I think that even the PP-Leaders
> list is probably as neglected by some members as any official wiki by
> you, maybe some of them would even argue that "Anyhow, just a mail in
> mailing-list cannot, in most cases, be considered an announcement, at
> least as far as I am concerned", we may never know...one thing i know
> for sure is that this particular list is not an official list of the PPI
> (you can dig that
> <http://lists.pirateweb.net/pipermail/pp.international.general/>), thus
> no announcement needs to be done here...savy?
> Pirate regards,
> Nuno
>     On March 28, 2014 9:01:50 PM EET, "Zbigniew Łukasiak"
>     <zzbbyy at gmail.com <mailto:zzbbyy at gmail.com>> wrote:
>         On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Nuno Cardoso
>         <nuno.cardoso at pp-international.net
>         <mailto:nuno.cardoso at pp-international.net>> wrote:
>             On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Andrew Norton
>             <ktetch at gmail.com <mailto:ktetch at gmail.com>> wrote:
>                 Just as a point of order, isn't this a bit late?
>                 Statutes say"
>                 (Statute IX(7) Meetings of the General Assembly will be
>                 announced at
>                 least five weeks prior to the meeting. The invitation
>                 will be sent out
>                 by the Board to all Members and published on the
>                 homepage of Pirate
>                 Parties International website."
>                 it's now just over TWO, not 5.
>             FYI:
>             "announcement" was made months ago when Paris was chosen,
>             and you can track
>             the full history of that "announcement" as it is "published
>             on the homepage
>             of Pirate Parties International website" here:
>             http://wiki.pp-international.net/wiki/index.php?title=PPI_Conference_2014&action=history
>         So for you "homepage" means just any page at the website?
>         This does not sound persuasive for me, for me homepage is
>         http://www.pp-international.net/ and there until today there was
>         nothing on the conference. And it also does not look like a super
>         tricky case that needs Court of Arbitration to tell.
>         By the way the requirement that "The invitation will be sent out by
>         the Board to all Members" is super ambiguous - and if we get into
>         disputes on what this means exactly - then we would probably really
>         need Court of Arbitration. But that is another thing.
>         *
>         Z.
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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>         *
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>     Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
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- -- 
Andrew Norton
Tel: +1(352)6-KTETCH [+1-352-658-3824]
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