[pp.int.general] R?ttning mitt?t, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list
ningunotro at hotmail.com
Sun May 18 19:31:14 CEST 2014
Dear Carlo, I could subscribe almost 100% of every word you say... if only I could be sure you would admit where the application of these words would lead us if applied not only to this mailing list, where I know of course that you think I am the worst troll of all, but to ALL BEHAVIOUR SHOWN for at least THE LAST TWO YEARS...
... in the PPI, at member level, at Board level, and at Court of Arbitration level.
Lets appoint a honest and capable group of auditors, and let them moderate AND correct each and every error and abuse that has driven me so far off that I have other priorities than to contribute positive ideas to the Pirate Movement... INSIST ON THE AWFULL MESS BEING CLEANED UP... before anything positive can be thought of again.
Nobody throws pearls to the swines... one first does everything possible to be sure there are no swine in the Movement.
I have put ALL THE EVIDENCE TOGETHER, for easy access to all:
with a download link to the full evidence file:
http://samedokan.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/infotothepress.jpg (just rename the .jpg to .zip)
Sad to say... I have identified a lot of German swine :(.
Are we ready to clean up the mess?
I would very much like to be able to enter "contribution mode" again, after a good barbecue with tasty swine :).
Member of the Board
Spanish Pirate Party
> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 18:55:23 +0200
> From: lynX at pirate.my.buttharp.org
> To: pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] R?ttning mitt?t, sort of: some thoughts for the mailing list
> It's been almost a year, but since noone said what I have to say, I do it now.
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 02:23:17PM +0200, Rick Falkvinge (Piratpartiet) wrote:
> > After all, rules that cannot reasonably be enforced are not rules you
> > want to have. You cannot keep somebody from posting to an open list,
> That is a misconception. Rules of decency and respect of other people
> are very well reasonably enforceable. The PPI board could define clear
> rules of behaviour and have them respected by moderation. Even the
> school of anti-authoritarian thinking has developed rules of reasonable
> civic collaboration, here's an example:
> I mean the part about electing a "vibes watcher" and having her or him
> stop "bad process" which in extreme cases must include moderation,
> otherwise the technique has no authority thus no effect.
> If even 1968's hippies have learned these basic rules of getting
> collaboration off the ground, why do we have to pretend we can
> invent something new and repeat exactly the same mistakes others
> have made before us?
> > and openness is a virtue. The alternative would be moderating posts
> > and/or participants, and that's not who we are; that's not the swarm
> > way of collaborating.
> Yes we rather degenerated into fighting without decency and respect
> for each other. Would be okay if you were proposing some technology to
> handle the problem, but like this you are trying to propose a new way
> to deal with problems that are thousands of years old, and have failed
> again and again - just recently in the 80s with the German Greens.
> If your idea was so bright, philosophers would have come up with it
> much earlier and the world would work in swarms instead of political
> > Instead, I'd like to remind everybody about two important principles:
> > - - Attention is reward.
> > - - If you see something you don't like, contribute with something
> > you do like.
> And then look how trolls puke all over it with non-sense populistic
> superficiliasm that somehow hurts even if it is completely baseless?
> > ATTENTION IS REWARD: If you give somebody attention for a behavior,
> > you will reinforce that behavior, whether the behavior is something
> > you want to see more or less of. This means that giving attention to
> > things you dislike is inherently self-defeating, as they will be
> > nurtured by your attention.
> You mean "don't feed the troll." That is flawed thinking as it only
> works for environments where there is a clearly defined leadership.
> In that case the leader ignores the troll and everything is fine.
> In a political party, ignoring the troll gives him or her a certain
> amount of victory and influences bystanders and newcomers that aren't
> fully understanding the issues. That is, with every last word the
> troll gets, his or her influence grows.
> So "don't feed the troll" does NOT work in democratic environments.
> Letting trolls act freely WILL damage the democratic process.
> Mailing lists are an ideal platform for trolls.
> > IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CONTRIBUTE WITH SOMETHING YOU DO
> > LIKE: This is closely related to the Law of Two Feet. We're a
> > meritocracy where we're dependent on many people trying many different
> > things. Leadership with us is not achieved by vote or appointment, but
> > by taking an initiative and letting others follow that initiative of
> > their own free will. Disliking an initiative is fine, but criticizing
> > the initiative from that emotion misses the point - being pioneers, we
> > must necessarily try many paths, and many of them will be dead ends,
> > but we don't know that before trying them. The more paths we try, the
> > more ways of success we'll find. Therefore, the proper response to
> > seeing somebody walk down a path you don't believe in is to walk down
> > your own path that you believe more in.
> Pirates do that all the time, but most of the time it leads to ten
> pirates standing at the end of ten different paths. And what's worse:
> All of them have not properly analyzed the problem at hand if they
> simply followed their opinionistic instincts rather than engaging
> in a rational problem/solution-finding process as also described in
> the document i linked above.
> I can see it in most pirate parties: N people, firmly convinced that
> the PP needs to do AAA or BBB to fix all problems, and none of them
> having fully thought it through and based it upon the evidence of
> the problems at hand. But they are ready to fight to the blood for
> their convictions. Excuse me, this is not my idea of Pirates.
> The idea of "voting with your feet" may be easy to implement in
> real life, but it WILL NOT return the best possible results as it
> fosters populistic followerships instead of rationally and
> scientifically debating all options and collectively realizing what
> the best solution would be. A proper process of consensus-finding.
> (Which I also admit isn't really supported by Liquid Feedback, so
> you will want to choose other tools. We use Pads and Mumble
> meetings for now, then hope the remaining party folks will
> understand and appreciate what we bring to the assembly).
> > (As a final plug, these and many more principles are covered more
> > in-depth in my book Swarmwise, which covers my leadership experiences
> > taking the PPSE from nothing into the European Parliament. Five
> PPSE is a very special case. A PP that does not have a court of
> arbitration, where it is accepted that whoever is elected to the
> board will run the show, no questions asked. This is not the idea
> of a political party the other Pirate Parties would like to follow
> Also, it seems that the swarm effect has only worked once. It's
> like triggering a chain reaction of retweets. Somewhat superficial
> and short-lived.
> Although that doesn't mean I don't have a lot of respect for your
> achievements. For that moment it was perfect. I just don't think
> they are a blueprint for the movement in the long run.
> It's not sustainable.
> > chapters have been published so far, and you can read them here:
> > http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/
> > )
> > Cheers,
> > Rick
> > PS: On the rare occasion, I have seen disrespect against fellow
> > activists on this mailing list, and I never think that's ok. Whether
> > to call it out or not is a judgment call on a case-by-case basis, but
> > that will not be done by the mailing list maintainers in that role.
> > See the two names as technical administrators of the mailing list
> > server, and not enforcers of any kind of social rules.
> And that is a bug that can easily be fixed.
> If the Pirate movement doesn't learn how to treat social problems
> appropriately, we will always drown our occasional successes in
> the destructive atmosphere that demotivates members, supporters,
> electorate, and as we have seen in Germany, even makes it into
> the media and becomes the #1 thing the Pirates are identified by.
> Incapacity of civilization.
> Luckily there is some 2% that sticks to us no matter how harsh
> we are to each other, but even that may vanish if you don't get
> our act together. And that could start with this mailing list.
> If the new PPI board doesn't think it's a good idea to have
> somebody vibes watch this list, then we can decide to have it
> happen by motion at the next GA.
> your fan von lynX.
> P.S. This statement does not necessarily reflect the
> opinions of my employer, my wife or my political party.
> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
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