[pp.int.general] Don't you think we should stand up and actually do something?

Thu Mar 12 10:25:20 CET 2015

Thx Zbigniew,

I will take a look at the pwb-blog at time.

To make sure, that I'm not misunderstood:

My proposal is not about inventing a new culture. My proposal is to do a deep profound analysis to find out which cultural elements we already share. Something never been done before I think. What we have ist a kind of Dropbox with a bunch of mutually thrown-in statements, ideas, topics, hopes and positions, aggregated by singular people or pretty small groups around the world. But the whole thing is missing direction, goal-orientation and - and thi sis important - a definitive committment besides the members.

Of course we very probably will create a new culture by development with time, but I'm sure, that a parallel working and cross-influencing on topics and basics is exactly what we do since years. And it leads to nowhere, to frustration, to ragetweets, shitstorms, hate and dysfunctionality.

Loose strings or pipelines with different content from anywhere which bring the different contents, liquids, gases, emulsions and bricks just in one big melting bowl together never automatically create a solid network. It creates what we actually have. I#m sure we would to well in working out, what we have in common and turn it into goal-orientated strategies.

My proposal is to do that with the method of systemic consensus.

I agree to start this under a new thread. Probably we could try to use the "Discourse" discussion tool for this, so interested people can work together on it and threadbreakers can be banned by the disputants. 

https://discourse.piratenpartei-bayern.de

Any ideas to title a new thread?

Regards

Thomas Blechschmidt

>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net
>[mailto:pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net] Im Auftrag von
>Zbigniew Lukasiak
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. März 2015 22:25
>An: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>Betreff: Re: [pp.int.general] Don't you think we should stand up and actually
>do something?
>
>Identity and shared values/culture - this is the corner stone for any
>movement - agreed.
>There is some work already done in this area - see for example
>http://blog.pirates-without-borders.org/pirate-codex/ - this is of course
>very little, but mention it for the record.
>
>I don't think that we could invent a shared culture - it will grow when we do
>stuff together - and reflect upon this. This needs to be done in parallel -
>do things together and build shared values - because it is the actions that
>give the concrete material to attach our thinking to, to reflect upon - and
>the thinking will give us ways to improve our actions.
>
>This probably is material for a whole new discussion thread.
>
>Z.
>
>
>On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Thomas Blechschmidt
><thomas.blechschmidt at piratenpartei-bayern.de> wrote:
>> OK, Markus,
>>
>> THX for that answer. I pick that up, because in my eyes it shows, that
>> we have a problem in common:
>>
>> We are focused on topics. That is a fact in Germania as well as in Bavaria.
>> Why is that a problem?
>>
>> Because topics are Challenges and not solutions. So, if a heterogenic
>> group of persons take care about a political topic and they do not
>> have a at least pretty similar interpretation of political items,
>> values, philosophies, or let us say the basics, and they bring in the
>> political culture and the socially programmed behavior of their
>> personality, that means they all will work on the same topic with
>> different methods and will expect everybody else to do that in the same
>way.
>>
>> Will that work? I doubt it.
>>
>> And here I see the first issue for PPi to do. Create a common identity
>> among international pirates. Kick out anything, what does not have a
>> significant acceptance. Take care that tools are not going to be
>> rotten by personal conflicts.
>>
>> The personal affectivity of any member in a political group, willing
>> to make a change, is absolutely not of interest. The challenge is to
>> run into a hard work process to find out, what the members have in
>> common and to take consequences, if one realizes, that he does not fit
>> in the group or the group does not fit for him.
>>
>> The missionary attitude to persuade other people about one's own
>> ideology is a dead end. It leads to nowhere. In the best case it
>> brings up the idea to turn around and set one's own ideology on the
>> street to find an new, common ideology among pirates.
>>
>> The error begins, when ideology becomes dogmatic. To do everything by
>> a certain "Book of rules" shows the mentality of a follower. It is one
>> thing to neglect leadership and to live a pretty anarchic political
>> life, but the consequence is, that there will be no evolution.
>> Followers don't walk straight ahead and don't lead people. The secret
>> ist, to balance out leadership with obeying without blaming followers or
>leaders.
>>
>> What I tried to make clear: Before we go to take care about political
>> topics, we should find out, which emotional, intellectual,
>> philosophical and political basics we share. Because that is, what
>> unites us. Common topics don't do that.
>>
>> Take an example on Varoufakis blog about his interpretation of his
>> selfdescription as radical and abnormous Marxist. And crosscheck the
>> reaction on this especially on German language blogs. If Varoufakis is
>> a Marxist, I'm the pope. Really.
>>
>> But he shows a reflection on Marxism, not even similar to Marxism. He
>> really locates the basic political issues "Liberty" (as a value) and
>"rationality"
>> (as criteria for legitimacy) in Marxism and the Marxism itself as
>> ideology of the political "Leftists". That makes me think, that he
>> either does not know, that "Liberty" as a value is the central basic
>> value of Liberalism, expressed an well articulated in John Lockes
>> oeuvre and "rationality" as criteria for legitimacy is central item of
>> the "époque of enlightenment", when Rousseau and Descartes described
>> their view of a democratic society, Newton, Lasalle, Hume and Voltaire
>> worked on their scientific and poetic fields to explain the world
>> besides simple believing in God and his creativity.
>>
>> I wonder whether we find that common ideological basis. The experience
>> here in Bavaria and Germany shows, that it is not possible to form a
>> powerful and creative movement just along common topics. Especially we
>> pirates should be aware, that topics are no intellectual property.
>> Because we know. That intellectual property in reality does not exist.
>> The only thing, that might have a right to exist, is that the
>> developer of an idea benefits from it during his lifetime. And this
>> only can rely on settled law. After his death, this right extinct.
>> There is no reason for prolongation, neither for his children nor for any
>company.
>>
>> OK, enough for today. Let's see, if something comes out of this. As
>> pirates we can create a international movement, and we can create a
>> international party as well. With direct, physical members. We do not
>> have to arrange an organization according to national laws just
>> because no international parliament exists.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>Von: pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>[mailto:pp.international.general-bounces at lists.pirateweb.net] Im
>>>Auftrag von thijs.markus at piratenpartij.nl
>>>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. März 2015 16:49
>>>An: Pirate Parties International -- General Talk
>>>Betreff: Re: [pp.int.general] Don't you think we should stand up and
>>>actually do something?
>>>
>>>There are quite a number of topics on which we should collaborate
>>>internationally, I'd say.
>>>
>>>For example, in the dutch pirate a group recently started working on
>>>finance/economy monetary systems (fiat systems, cryptocurrencies, gold
>>>standard etc). I would not be surprised if other pirate parties have
>>>or had similar groups. A lot of things on this topic are global (IMF,
>>>global banks) or at least in the EU europe-wide (ECB).
>>>
>>>To my mind an obvious purpose of PPI would be to link up these sort of
>>>national groups. At the very least they can share one another's
>>>research and opinion to advance their own. And a bit of international
>>>feedback to one another would help heaps in keeping the national
>>>groups active and moving on.
>>>
>>>The parallel national re-invention of the wheel is one of the things
>>>where PPI has a role to play.
>>>____________________________________________________
>>>Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>>>pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>>>http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>> pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>> http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general
>
>
>
>--
>Zbigniew Lukasiak
>http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/
>http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
>____________________________________________________
>Pirate Parties International - General Talk
>pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net
>http://lists.pirateweb.net/mailman/listinfo/pp.international.general