[pp.int.general] PP-IT Statutes & pan-organizational Structures WG

[Antonio Garcia]

[pp.int.general] PP-IT Statutes & pan-organizational Structures WG

carlo von lynX

lun 16/10/2017 12:38Pirate Parties International -- General Talk (pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net)


> I wanted to answer in private, but hotmail doesn't like mail from me.

Don't worry, I have absolutely no need for privacy on this issue ;).



On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 07:45:27PM +0000, Antonio Garcia wrote:

>> Not having any respect for logic and ethic is not just a little small

>> deficiency... it is having nothing solid to build and expand upon, as

>> pirates. You're not paying attention to THAT, then any improvement and

>> lesson learned (what kind of?) is still utterly worthless.


> We're researching the possibility of using legal+software to maximize

> collective rationality, dealing with what you say here, right?

> You can probably parse Italian partially, so here's the link:

> https://forum.partito-pirata.it/t/filosofia-della-democrazia-razionale-collettiva/1619

Filosofia della Democrazia Razionale Collettiva - Forum ...<https://forum.partito-pirata.it/t/filosofia-della-democrazia-razionale-collettiva/1619>
forum.partito-pirata.it
Cari amici, sapete che da tempo vorrei trovare un modo gentile ma efficace e bilanciato di integrare la filosofia illuminista nel processo democratico liquido. Ho ...


There is a basic flaw in your research, Carlo. If you want everybody to be equal as the grassroots movement demands, then you can NOT use software so complex that only a few understand how it works (not only the user interface, but also the logic internals) because then some are more equal than others.

No matter how much those that do NOT understand the internals love it because at first sight it seems to enable a bypass in the user interface whereby people can simply forget all the argumentation and go straight to the VOTE BUTTON.

Liquid Feedback enables a CLICK-THROUGH #IDIOCRAZY where the votes of the few that have given the issues input and serious thought are worth JUST AS MUCH as the votes of those many that after a weekend of alcoholic nirvana log in to randomly asses their equality to others by simply pushing any vote option without giving its meaning a single thought. I vote, thus I am ;).

The issue is being problematic enough where there is a cost attached to the behaviour, like the travel costs involved to the presence of folks at the real life BundesParteiTag tradition. It can only get worse where the real cost of access to "I vote, thus I am" philosophy is practically ZERO.


>> Has your German Pirate Party with all those great contributors to the

>> PPI board and functioning structures throughout the years found what

>> lesson is to be learned from its last 0,37% miraculous results to the

>> Bundestag elections?


> No, the Germans are insisting on their losing recipe. I do understand

> that each one of them has a different diagnosis on what is going

> wrong, which means that the inability to come to a consensus persists

> beyond the failure.

True. The problem being that ONCE you get a mayority to lose sight of logic and ethic in their behaviour, said majority will do whatever simplistic thing necessary to maintain and increase their influence in the decision process.

That is why they insist on the grassroots democratic value of Liquid Feedback, BEO, or whatever other mechanism that allows them to vote without the hassle of being acquainted with the issue at hand. Any technical means that enables them to skip everything tedious at the user interface level and go straight for a VOTE BUTTON, gives them a very cheap "I vote, thus I am" confirmation mechanism for worthless, but anyway coveted, self-confidence. A very psychological issue.


> I'm with the Italians, but I'm also to blame. I did the work of

> translating our Guidelines for Moderation, but didn't help Pakki

> enough to turn it into a votable proposal for the BPT.

The problem of the Italian Pirate Party with its LIQUID FEEDBACK general and permanent assembly is well known... in order not to be taken over by the majority as I described them... you need a very elaborated vetting mechanism for those you give access to the VOTE BUTTON. A vetting mechanism that will be tainted by the understanding of those that are already inside and able to decide on its characteristics at the moment it goes up, and then becomes immune to no matter how rational the critics of those that did not have the chance to be a part of the relatively random group of initial adopters.

The Spanish group X-net has an identical endogamic problem.


>> I've had a look into the proposals for the next BPT and seen the

>> candidates for the next board of directors... and I do not see a hint

>> of any lessons learned, any will to improve.


> Thanks for checking so I don't have to do it.

My pleasure, even if a bitter pill. I keep watching everything unfold along expected lines ;(.

Last chapter just popped up in the mail... The European Pirate Party controversy ;(.


>> What else do you think can be left to do but laughing at you?


> Laughing at the wrong people? Feels good maybe, but

> isn't solving anything. Also, when the day comes that

> the behavioral deficits in the Pirate movement are

> addressed, your condescending tones would be among

> the first to be subject of moderation...

Laughing at the whole tragicomic situation. There is no wrong or right, good or bad people here, it is a whole interdependant mass dynamic.

And laughing at people is NOT the same as people believing they are being laughed at.

No doubt I am as worthy of being sent to the Gulag as any intellectual under the Bolshevik, Mao or Vietcong administration.


> In fact, I candidated for the PPI CoA just to deal

> with the tones on this mailing list, but I never

> found out who has the admin password for it.

Ask "mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se" <mattias.bjarnemalm at piratpartiet.se>. The list is managed by the Swedish, and he once threathened to exclude me from it ;).



>> Pirates are a complete failure, simple human mass dynamics made a

>> kindergarten of them.


> Yes, that's what our working group is about. Making

> structures that resist the kindergarten effect.

Sadly, there is NO WAY you are ever going to achieve anything from INSIDE the already existing KINDERGARTEN. I ran the Spanish Pirate Party all the way down to ONLY THIRTEEN members... and still the infantile were a majority, because the intelligent go away or stay away much earlier from any mechanism where the naieve have free reign to invade the structure much easier than any intelligent group could.

You need a workgroup of INTELLIGENT people creating the mechanisms and rules by which the group can stay majoritarily INTELLIGENT... before you open up.


> Regarding corruption resistance: how would you describe

> when a decision is being made by a thousand people instead

> of one? Isn't that an example of corruption-resistant design?

A decision taken by a thousand people is as intelligent and corruption-resistant as the maximum intelligence level that can be in use to be able to include 50%+1 of the members in such majority decision. If you have to go down to KINDERGARTEN level to find a 50%+1 group... then only KINDERGARTEN level decisions can be reached, any other unable to reach sufficient consensus.

Talk about corruption resistance ;)).


> Or are you convinced that a thousand can be corrupted just

> as easily as a single one?

Are you blind? Rational decision making needs rationality to be upheld actively.

A thousand does not only get rationally corrupted, it also gets emotionally brainwashed.


That is what happened with PPI at the 2012 PPI GA and lingers on through all the others held since.



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