[pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the pirate ideology?

Sat Jul 13 18:17:47 CEST 2013

Great Points and great discussion. Sorry, it got a bit lengthy though.

Zbigniew Łukasiak
++1

Tom Behets
She may be onto something!
+1

Koen De Voegt and Thrasos Nerantzis:
"maximum income" sounds good in theory but you forget to differentiate
between INCOME and ASSETS. I think I know in which direction you are
firing, but people “earning a lot” are not the problem (Steve Jobs made 1$
a year), they maybe the tip of the iceberg but not more. The issue is
rather about, concentration, accumulation and inheritance. Believe me, some
Banker Bonuses are really nothing in compression. But I do understand that
this is easy game for elections as such: Fire at will! :)

Davidd van Deijk and Francisco George
Alaska sounds interesting! But I think you also get money if you e.g. speak
Irish in Ireland. The payment is limited to a certain function and as such
no basic income but a subsidy to populate an uninhabitable area or speak
funny. - as such off topic :(

alexis.roussel
+1

## As for unconditional basic income
I think the “left” suffers from the fact that you can never save a
thoughtless person from himself. No matter how hard they try. It won't
change the real conditions as they are made by mindsets.

In Germany a lot support, at least for the idea itself, is actually rooted
in the “rather right” capitalist circles that are the CDU/CSU. Not kidding.
Think “Christian Social Ethics”.

They (CDU/CSU) do also harbor a lot of social envy which makes it a little
schizophrenic.

## But I’d love to add even more color to it:

I personally was first in support of the unconditional basic income because
of everything Zbigniew wrote. Additionally it sounds like a great
opportunity to enable people to contribute to the greater society but I
turned against it as I came to understand that the underlying premise was
rather flawed. I especially found that, we as society should allow those
who are highly skilled/efficient a way out of the treadmill. Meaning for
example to have the top software developer not working to increase the
profit of some multinational but rather contribute to something great for
all of humanity e.g. some open source project, etc (those people have the
highest lever after all).

### What’s the issue?
Only a little portion of those high performing people will actually be
attracted by it. Even worse, a lot of potential will only be realized under
a certain pressure that will be equally(!) taken out of the kettle (I am
looking here at myself). You can't rise if you don't fall!
There is further an ever increasing cohort on the bottom of the labor
market that will hardly ever provide more value to the economy then they
would get as a basic income. Thus, they will be not only priced out of the
market but also out of dignity which may actually cause a disastrous effect
in a society that is so firmly rooted in the labor theory of value.

## Alternative?
The top performer would probably appreciate a “path to early retirement”
once the social conscious comes nagging rather than some kind of handout.
This idea has not arrived in politics yet.

## Now I turned recently AGAIN in favor of basic income :) Here is why:

Because I found that viewing it as basic income is actually dead wrong. It
is rather an Economic Rent that would provide a human being (by default)
for the first time in history with a clear price tag. Think: the value of a
human calculated for airplane safety checks. If you like it or not,
currently 80% don't score very high.
http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/01/articles/airlines/faa-human-life-worth-6-million/

We could enter into agreements with a lot less traction because, payment
default, up to the basic income would be practically impossible. It would
lift the debt “worthiness” incredibly and as such fuel the economy.

By its nature the Basic Income has actually more qualities of a “Marriage
Loan”. Just paid in installments instead of a lump sum and without the
obligation of having children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_loan

It technically provides the holder with a Life Annuity that is backed by
the Federal Government! Think about it. For Germany that would basically
mean a sort of a AAA Fixed Income Bond. This opens whole new perspectives!
The holder could swap the Basic Income like any other coupon and the
derivative could be securitized and sold separately.

Consider that especially under current market conditions were there is a
huge appetite for investments with a high credit rating.

Only this has the potential to turn the stagflated future into a much
brighter one.

## BUT
Not to forget. It can also be used as highly efficient instrument to
manipulate the labor supply, for good and bad (e.g. like the marriage
loan). This I find the biggest downside risk. Subsequently it will be
inevitable that the economic welfare takes a hit.
Other downsides? Everybody becomes a very visible liability, has anybody
ever considered how the balance sheet would look like? How about we
introduce Basic Income and let foreigners work and pay the taxes (like
Switzerland, Luxembourg?), they aren’t eligible after all - Win-Win? ;)

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Francisco George <
francisco.george at gmail.com> wrote:

> The PP-ES stands in favour of Basic Income.
>
> Actually there are already states that have BI implented.
>
> Alaska
> Some Arab emirates, but just for their nationals(emigrants are not
> included)
>
> 20 years ago a political party in Belgium started to defend this and got
> some hype.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivant
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/vivant/60132009232
> http://www.vivanteurope.org/?lang=en
>
> As he was founded by a Millionaire
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet in Belgium and due to
> their alliance with Liberals, they have been considered a Center-right
> movement,
>
> It is classified as "Progressive Liberalism" also known as "Social
> Liberalism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_liberalism
>
> Roland Duchatelet, it's founder, was Belgian Senator from 2007 > 2011
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Duch%C3%A2telet
>
>
> The mixed(french/german) public tv has a special dossier about it
> http://future.arte.tv/fr/sujet/le-revenu-de-base-promesse-dun-avenir-meilleur (sorry
> just available in German or French)
>
>
> 2013/7/13 <illunatic at greenpirate.org>
>
> Kind of have to agree with that as I recently cut back to two days at my
>> current job because I need more time available to do other things which pay
>> more. They job was more than minimum wage, but not enough to fit my lavish
>> lifestyle (sarcasm).
>>
>> Quoting Antonio Garcia <ningunotro at hotmail.com>:
>>
>>  Oh, yeah! Instead of being 50 units short to get to the end of the
>>> month, people would prefer to have nothing at all. Might be an option for
>>> people that do not accumulate fixed cost in their aim of running their
>>> life, like mortgages and such.
>>>
>>> I love intelligent comment and cheer it when I see some ;) .
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: me at travismccrea.com
>>>> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 12:40:15 -0400
>>>> To: pp.international.general@**lists.pirateweb.net<pp.international.general at lists.pirateweb.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [pp.int.general] Basic income - how does that fit into the
>>>> pirate ideology?
>>>>
>>>> I have never heard of this argument? in reality it has no basis. If a
>>>> company was paying you less than basic income, you would just not take the
>>>> job, or you could quit the job.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2013-07-12, at 10:06 AM, Cal. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 12 July 2013 15:38, Betiel <betielix at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Personally I believe having a basic income helps to avoid abuses
>>>> from some
>>>> >> unethical companies.
>>>> >
>>>> > It depends. A common leftist objection on basic income is that it
>>>> > enables "unethical evil company" to offer jobs for very very very low
>>>> > wages.
>>>> > ______________________________**______________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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